Open General Forums

I am opening this topic here to allow all of you still interested in adding new specials to r-read the JP's topic http://www.panzercentral.com/forum/view ... 66#p771109 and post here your conclusions.

I've tried to collect the candidates in this list:

• Missile = The engine knows that a unit with this special is a missile (and can be launched from e.g. submerged submarines)submarine regarding being an air unit (moving on air space).
• Air healer = Heals air units like the existing healer special heals ground units.
• Sam missile = Can intercept range>1 (max. 4, defined in the cfg)
• Radar = Spotting range of the unit wouldn't be affected by weather or terrain
• Radar countermeasures = Some kind of active or passive countermeasures which hide units from being spotted by radar special
• Radars = using 'semi-spotted' mechanics.This way 'radar vision' could be separated from normal vision.
• Air refuel = Refueling air units by tanker plane
• Overwatch = Gives the ambush capability to units.
• Expert camo = unit can only be spotted from an adjacent hex
• SALVO/VOLLEY FIRE/FRENZY = basically the devastating fire leader ability.
• REGENERATION = a unit would automatically gain free strength points back every turn if below starting strength -(cfg variable file to specify rate of regeneration)
• Expert Scout = doesn't run into unspotted minefield but stop in adjacent hex
• Improved Sonar = chance to evade submarine attack
• Light Equipment = after disembark, may move and shoot with restrictions
• Propaganda = moral bonus to friend, moral malus to foe, in a radius

(*) night turns = like Pacific General handled them, was also suggested, but it would be a scenario option instead of efile special.
Night turns was discussed long ago, but we never got to agree on any spec ... not even on how to define in Suite, but we can start a discussion again.

The "radar" issue, should maybe discussed in a specific thread though, as it is closely related to spotting rules and night turns

Please review the original JP's topic an post here your ideas.

Greetings generals

LuisGuzman wrote: ↑2019-10-07 11:21, Monday night turns = like Pacific General handled them, was also suggested, but it would be a scenario option instead of efile special.
Night turns was discussed long ago, but we never got to agree on any spec ... not even on how to define in Suite, but we can start a discussion again.

Originally i was a supporter of the idea of "night combat/turns", however, i changed my mind.

In real life terms:
* prior to WW2 visibility in the night was heavily limited, unless some source of light was carried by the troops / available in the area / moon was shining
* during WW2, generally the above still applies, with following exeptions
-- land combat: first night vision sights for tanks / fighting vehicles appeared. Depending on the source you read, with effective range of 350-500m
-- air combat (including AD/Flak): radar guided
-- naval combat: echo sounding, sonar, radar guided
* Cold War era and beyond
-- early: as in WW2, with more "night fighters" = radar guidance for aircraft/Flak
-- late: (beginning in the 70s) night vision sights decrease in size, down to "man portable", however even in the 90s and today night vision goggles are rather something for special forces = not readyly available for all troops. Aircraft/ships are radar guided. Helicopters might be equipped with night vision and/or thermal sights
* keep in mind that [day and night] are not constant operands

We could also start a discussion about "how often took combat place in the night ? ", but i think this would be/become hair-splitting and special-casing.


In game terms.
I didn't do a statistical analysis (not even close), but going by "feeling" and guessing, the average scenario
- spans 2-3 kilometers per hex (or 1000+ soldiers per full-strength unit in a hex)
- takes 11 turns until BV
- spans 7 days per 11 turns
- occures before summer 1942 (*)
=> there is about 36% of turns in the night scattered around a large area, making night combat rather meaningless

(*) lets take summer '42 as the point in time were enough "night combat equipment" was available for equipping divisions, fleets and squadrons on a general basis. It would probably be early to mid 1941 for ships, late '42 for aircraft and summer '44 for tanks, but

Besides new game/engine rules for day/night combat, we would need a new Night Combat unit ability (for "radar guided" aircraft and flak, even ships - i.e. the Japanese didn't have radar).
There are dozens (if not hundreds) of campaigns, with campaign designers either missing or occupied with other projects, thus the night combat would rather be somethign for new campaigns - if at all.

In short, while i find the idea interesting, i'm not convinced that day/night cycle and night combat is worth the trouble.
At least not on its own - maybe if combined with, or as a part of, a dedicated [radar + spotting extension] of the OG engine

LuisGuzman wrote: ↑2019-10-07 11:21, Monday The "radar" issue, should maybe discussed in a specific thread though, as it is closely related to spotting rules and night turns

Instead of night combat as its own topic, i think that extended discussions about
- radar
- PeG Spotting Rules for OG Spotting
- PacGen features for OG Naval Combat
are imho more favourable and efficient

One note on radar. It would be best if radar would spot (undefined like in PeG), but not all units. Just planes and ships (without subs).
Maybe an ability that can be used for spottable by radar or not.

One note on radar. It would be best if radar would spot (undefined like in PeG), but not all units. Just planes and ships (without subs).
Maybe an ability that can be used for spottable by radar or not.

this is exactly what we need NOT, a radar equipped unit should not need another unit to get close to have a full spotting in order to engage a target, it should be able to know how many enemies are coming in (unit strenght) and be able to fully angage it, both things that the undefined spotting status deny!

Lupo, i don't understand:
without special rules, what would be the difference between [normal spotting] and [radar spotting] ?

Mythos, how does my statement imply normal spotting = radar spotting?

At moment normal spotting is severily hampered by bad weather, for air units more than ground ones, a radar should not (yes bad weather degrades radar performance ,some kind more than others, but let’s keep it simple).

With advanced spotting rules ANY unit in city, forest ,mountain is hidden, a radar should only be unable to see units in the mountains (let’s conced the plane is flying behind the mountain since we have no way to know the actual position relative to the three objects and have some tactical challange other than represent actual tactics of flying among mountains if not even hills to conceal yourself from radars).

In reality radards should also be able to see ground units but let’s concede that we focus on sea and air spotting for various reasons and ignore all the amenities of radar types and capabilities in detail or we'll need several specials. So radars would only spot units over [(((“ocean” OR “shallowsea” hexes) AND NOT “submerged”) OR (with Type = "Air" AND NOT "mountain" hex)) AND NOT Jamming/jammed*], unit class not withstanding since you’ve many hybrids around.
*depends on how the ECM special is implemented. It should hide from radar units within a given range from itself or blind all radards within a given range from itself.

I belieave this is far from normal spotting and with quite special rules.
It’s also more general purpose than the “battle of england only” config proposed above, because with that implementation it won’t even work for a proper WW2 setting. Battleships with radar would still need something else to spot a target to be able to even shoot at max range because their radar won’t help them at all and we’re not speaking about picking the most favourable target but angaging at all.

Necroposting, as this thread is 2 years old and I don't know if this is still under consideration, long abandoned, or already done.

mythos wrote: ↑2019-11-02 18:33, Saturday Besides new game/engine rules for day/night combat, we would need a new Night Combat unit ability (for "radar guided" aircraft and flak, even ships - i.e. the Japanese didn't have radar).

Night turns in OG should IMHO work like in Pacific General, that is, each x turns (scenario setting), you get 1 (or more) "night turns", during which movement and combat rules are slightly changed. Being a scenario setting, it wouldn't affect existing campaigns and E-Files. As for how to set that in OpenSuite, simply have a pop-up window like turn prestige where the user checks which turns are "night" during one day. The day length is already defined in a scenario, so just offer as many checkboxes and let the user choose the night ones, from none to all.
IMHO night turns would be easy to code, as it is just simple modifiers (contact fighting way less accurate, no long range artillery fire, land movement is slower, planes and ships move freely but don't see anything (and thus can't fight)). The only thing required would be one (or two) specials which simply negate those "night" penalties, much like "all weather" negates bad weather.

And why night turns? Well, because night is tactically very important: It's the time you resupply your troops, move damaged units back and fresh ones to the front, all this without the enemy shelling the living daylight out of them. It's the slight timeout which, if used advisedly, can change a defeat into victory.
Even for the AI it is simple to code: Mostly resupply/repair your units so they are fresh when the night is over, move only if required, don't attack unless sure to kill. For instance, the turn before night, the AI should fly its planes back to a friendly airport and let them spend the night there so they have full strength when the night is over.


That been said, if I had to choose one, my vote would go to "Air healer" ("Heals air units like the existing healer special heals ground units."). Planes feel left out...
It works great for ground equipment and all my campaigns heavily rely on repair units. The lack of "air" counterpart forces me to allocate some random money for the player to be able to repair his planes, which is a kludge. I'd rather have him immobilize his planes at an airport until they are repaired, which for a scenario maker is easier to make provision for.

none wrote: ... "night turns"
..."Air healer"

I do not plan to add new option for a while yet.

On one hand most designers wanted to keep the executable stable for a long time, so in these last months I've just fixed glitches.
On the other hand, the pandemia has stolen most of my free time, so I have no time right now to think on new additions.
Even my time to visit the forum is less frequent than I used to do.

But it's good that people keep posting for new enhancements, as as soon as our lives will be normal again, we can think on implementing them.
So thank you very much for posting this.

I understand. Is it still okay to post wishes, or will I get my head bitten off again?...

I respect and understand peoples' wish for a stable platform, where you don't have to redo all your scenarios every 6 months to keep up; But if any new additions are optional, as in "you can use them or ignore them", I still fail to see the problem. Just saying.