my pub themes and similar

[Ale]

welcome back & well done to whoever enabled forum again since i made only few posts in last 7 months i'll repeat them compiled in one post for practical reasons - sadly for "puritans" all with typos and straight grammatical errors i'm prone to make in the future gladly repost, so i could continue eventually with some other ideas...not very hopeful in some forum life - but to state clearly some goals, very interested in older history (and some humor line) and find forums much more better medium for eventual, albeit there wasn't much activity, but why not being optimistic or simply gladly sharing some humor or story. to say, mostly interested in eventual French and Italian history lovers and some dialogue etc. not for some national or political reasons but as countries are full of interesting heritage, cities and traces interesting even for us - as noted i perosnally think it defined our history of the time and even gave shape to Serbian nation in some indirect way as two queens really elevated tribe. Hope you are proud of creation ...anyway, other history lovers are also welcome, of course English medievalist are always respectful and like our Nemanide themes for example, maybe also someone from the region, what is new and talked there on older subjects, what Hungarians think about Angevine era and kings, newer book etc etc any subject not even related to us is welcome for me, for example nice relatively newer detail is that our emperor Dushan was much more "loved" in some Dalmatian regions and that he even planned to march to some cities in today Croatia with Venetians (even north of Split, place of Diocletianus' palace btw) few years before death but changed direction south to Greece again as Kantakuzenos attacked again etc. Sure modern Croats would love it If lived longer would be interesting development especially considering raging war with Louis Anjou of Hungary, what would happen if he lasted few years more is nice theory etc. or nice story from Ragusa/Dubrovnik how for centuries they talked to every foreigner that "king Dushan passed through this gate once"... generally nice stories, so welcome if something new on very far and "romantic" days, what are new medievalist ideas. XIV, starting with Philip IV of France maybe also indirectly shaped whole continent so it is most interesting era to talk about.... etc

[this is btw repeat of posts i only made in last 7 months, irrelevant now but as said to have place to continue if we survive]... so in recent times read few texts about works of some younger historians or similar (even one domestic psyhologists who wrote some work about HIM), both domestic and even foreign, touching the subject of why SU IV Dushan was only ruler of his dynasty not awarded "sainthood" by Serb orthodox church after his death or few years after, subject of speculation for centuries, of less importance but interesting eternally... despite realtively decent life, numeruos religious foundations, monasteries and many donations for our, Greek, even Italian churches etc. and even elevation of national church to patriarchy ; which (donations and foundations) was almost enough for "sainthood", and all other of his line have it... so a bit of paradox so generally "tought provoking".

wrote before a lot in my comic style and speculated - i even mentioned law norms in which "he attacked church and high ranking clerics, sripulated they care about religious subjects and feed the poor etc" other norms mentioning "punishemnt for cler" etc. and similar but also mentioned "shock" his allowance of a woman (his wife) to enter and stay in male only monastic/community in Greece i.e. Mount Athos during few months etc. But generally dismissed speculations that it was his relation with previous king-father, conquest, elevation or relation with Constantinople patrirchy (which anathemised him, btw).... so, why post - number of authors in texts talking about own works (some i'm still to read in complete maybe) seem to agree that exactly that subject i.e. "incident" might have been crucial for ignoring his "sainthood" status post mortem, by our national church which was only to decide on such matter, so unlike in catholicism i guess, we are all allowed to have "local saints" etc.

not sure was if was more important as factor (but might be if some say) than norms or anymosity with some figures, but that's what some say as deciding, though we'll never know on old history subjects what figures talked in their chumbers so always speculation in great percent... but like it as conclusion by some - central and most powerful figure of period, "the mighty", lost one usual staus due to wife i.e. geneder/marriage issues certaily adds to colorite of time and figure, added to international surroundings, various nationalities around and all, cinematic. Doubt that reasons were "feministic" per se but Dushan just demonstrated his will to be respected, which maybe offended some too much and was sacred place of orthodoxy.

...who desn't follow we are talking first half of XIV c, Serb royal dynasty formed after marriage of our ruler and Anna Dandolo of Venice which lasted for some 160 years, reaching peak and most prominent ruler, even emperor, was only not getting "sainthood" after death by national church even if he was "deserving" compared to others and was practice, interesting subject and people still wonder... generally not father nor conquest, but who knows whole story - on older subjects it is even better everyone to speculate or have different opinions which makes stories much more fun and fresh ;

part II

...who doesn't follow ; (even my previous posts, let alone older history)) - that wife was from Bulgar royal family, unimportant as nationality for "incident" but just to mention who she was... "historical interestings" or fun fact is that our king early in his reign (5-6 years) planned to divorce her for childless marriage and to eventually marry girl from Habsburg family (Austrian, Bavarian, Schwabian line its complicated family tree, father was quasi some king of Germany), which didn't happen as bride died either in Austria or in port Kotor (today Montenegro, then Serb and Venetian control etc).... to cut it short as joke - imagine HIM's "sin" if his wife of the time at monastic state was Habsburg ....but seriously - Bulgar one was good queen, guided not only husband to great feats, did good diplomatic missions in Vinegia but also tried to make decent man of (nicknamed) "weak" son, last Nemanide.... killed by Vukashin, man who at 40 and death looked like he was 80 years old on frescos etc

another mine addition to "hidden female history" of our middle ages - said before and no repeat, quite possible that without mainly two girls from Dandolo family and possibly French Angevin/Plantagenet family we would not be "as big" as today, maybe some tiny Montenegro-like... empress Jelena also had character, albeit not as crucial as those two, when you take historical prism... interestings is that in 100 years Serb or Rascian royal family almost united Dandolo, some Carolings represented in all French families and almost Habsburgs (not to mention minor Greek, Italian and Bulgar sidelines) ; ...beats me why till this day i.e. why would few warrior or border guards like chieftains even be considered by them, but did happen and is cool, "nationbuild".

as said, i'll not do repeats, but just after few months pause to mention what are some interests if someone new is around etc

part III

below is - courtesy of one Belgian painter (Flemish and then servant of Habsburgs, Boys name) and Vienna's history-kultur-kunst-turbo folk museum - painting of our "almost to be" queen... nice blond hair and eyes. Just joking, painting of her father as we say in Germa-style, Fridrih III Habsburg - king of Germany, lord of Austria, Shtajer etc. and even (quasi) Roman emperor, all in different times... when it comes to painting, absolutely not how man looked like as it was made 250 years after his death, by author that never seen him ; etc. so more artistic fiction than true representation and shaped by "beauty norms of his later time" some baroque or what, not my field ... talking about medieval art (which this is not) our generally is not good as well as western for representation of true figures - why it was rare example and noted even by international visitors/experts that Lesnovo frescos stand out, esp. representations of Dushan and Oliver as young, arogant and strong etc...

since this is forum primarily about Germans and their history sadly ), think that even for our history lovers is interesting read who was father of unlicky princess, if Austrian sources are right about story (no reason to be fake as it is not something huge for bothsides to be lie) - was almost legaly elected (quasi) "Roman" emperor, but in time of death of his daugther he was dead... Dushan had ties in "highest circles" but our talks about some such marriage started even before Dandolo queen in 1180s with also Fridrih, Barbarossa (do not mix with Hitler times)) where some prince was set to marry some Hohenstaufen girl etc. As he died after agreement was signed, it also never happened

while Palman was "main agent" in this story and it is preserved just because of knowledge of his story, as seen not so known for wider continental maybe not even whole German historiography - i'm close to conclude that Palman and his legion wasn't some "story by chance" i.e. unintended meeting but maybe (just maybe) intentionally sent squad to reinforce Rascian kings against eventual French animosity etc by Germans and English etc. Might be, might be not, but either way (our talks and channels with France were open and always used, plus kings had more of that line than German then) stories are great, cinematic... i'm just adding possibilities, but enjoy the article and how known things developed... think we have every right and material that based on those 160 years (and more as fame lasted till middle XV) make good historical novels or films, mysteries etc. Unlike some minor nations where great western powers usually used policy of forcing own kings on them in gradual unity, for us in those 200 years (until some 1430s maybe, past glorius line) western powers used policy of sending eventual queens from famous families jokingly said & unimportant.

last but not least - mentioned girl from story was 19 in time of death under suspicious circumstances ; ...so both Dushan and his team, Palman and his ties, but also Austrian-Schwabish team and representatives in this case had nothing nasty planned.... as said if you have anything of sort, some interest, always there, but see you in 6 months ;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_the_Fair

part IV

...but as every public work is in a way educational, must say this as deep knowledge is needed for medieval subjects (maybe other too but this one is detective work par excellence)

idk, obviously i fluctuate too much about France ...problem is and my uncertainity hence two things - why not some open, huge action by Hungarian and south Italian Angevins when for example our whole army was in some siege, Serres, Thessaloniky etc. Never happened and Luis always retreated, indicating that he had no serious plans, for example... and second for whole that period and later even French served here and chronicles wrote positively about later Serbia etc, why would you not "punch" it a bit in some chronicle etc... (except Pierre chronicle, but he was under shock and stress) but yes, one can say if forced to - since start of XIV and Philip IV huge things happened that shocked whole continent, so let's agree that there was anti-French (crown and nobles) sentiment and animosity, so not to "fluctuate" ...as said no straight line, lots of turns and hidden passages in those times, that's middle ages which was way far from cliche of closed societies and localized things without some pan-continental sensibility or touch

and let's say that Vinegia and Habsburgs and Schwabs (southern Germans and it is not slur) were our best pals of times, west of us and Aragorn anyway, removal of pope was maybe that "bang" in Miluten's head (later followed maybe by Dushan) that resonated like "if they can this to pope, why couldn't they do it to us etc" for example, my explanation how would son of (possibly fully) French princess attack French possesion of Durazzo (forgot Latin name) etc. so yes, going up, down, left right on Franch minor houses around and Capetians, it was animosity in those 50 years, later nobody cared about France anymore here... probably, as said i expressed what worries me and no black and white

did you know dear local readers that Barbarossa was functionally illiterate past age of finish of elementary school today & never fully learned Latin... better than Dushan? man knew 3 languages as teen, and used German good enough to say "halt, angrif, panzers forverts!" ...trully, no sarcasm, likable stories from Roger 2 of Sicily "weaking us up" (as Romeans wrote), to Lombardian league we liked, then Barbarossa etc .etc. till the bitter end in 300 years, compare it modern history where in 3 centuries almost nothing happened - but of course and seriously, greater and deeper continental history of time knowledge is needed to fully understand period even for us, so many of our books i disliked as they never fully touched it.... btw, Germans liked us, too many from intelectual and even military "mileau" even fascinated, fairly said even as far in history. And they just wanted to be Romans, like us, they envied our Felix and Claudia for long - and finally we accepted them...

recommend to everyone as relaxation or philosophical discipline, or simply little detecive game... of course without long and harsh winters without other firewood in Serbia, Avignon, other French courts, semms Vienna too everything would be easier but like as it is and as some stories resurfaced or were preserved, 90% of them are nice to us and we can wage own place as sufficent compared to size and numbers etc. ultimately it is fun...

[the end of repeated posts from before crash]

[Ale]

this is also something i intented to put before crash, relatively "important" to French history looks and in a way small correction of myself, although my words were more in comical sense... often talk from head, so minor mistakes are OK and that first something else later. In technicality my use of "Plantagenet" (also creation) for Angevins of later date and those we all love is incorrect as those Angevins are more titular "Angevins" than true ones descending from early counts of Anjou and related to Plantagenets a la Richard etc. In fact our Angevins are not related directly and are in fact minor branch of Capetians themselves so directly related to French kings, Capetians ; ...but as said mistake is only minor, as i also said that all French houses were related to Carolings themselves, more or less - as well as early i.e. true Angevins from before and to Capetians plus English king of later date (Edwards) was also related to Cepatians... hope i explained it properly, more or less minor subject but there is difference so, for example, our queen "not sure who really" was in part or fully Capetian more than early Planta etc etc.

this one, lighter... of course "Anglo-Sexon" show and more TV fiction (as they admited) than historical drama, one could expect only dragons to fly aaround so realistic... but always interesting and i'm not hiding that i like their productivity on subjects, probably noone is doing it like Brits quantitatively. Not sure if i watched fully but even this is nice enough to remind me on few things. Philip IV was (probably) blond (if not blond than lighter haired) for start and some also contemporary sources described him as not emotional at all, to rise voices or hit around ; ...for minor ones, not even important to touch other non-historical things. BUT, but for us who know it is striking how creators made him similar to exactly Louis of Hungary, at leats from this picture, Hungarian chronicle noticed that as fun

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtJO8zs1P8Y

I'm France! I'm France! I'm sun! Muhahhaaa... i belong to those (maybe few) who think that Philip was maybe central figure of whole middle ages.... in a way it is "flattering" and hence intereseting for our history lovers (and why English are sometimes interested in our line) that Philip was relative of our king Miluten, imagine. Very intersting stories and some dates in both Philip and Miluten's activity are in total alignment, as i mentioned, they surely had contacts (with his relative of Naples-Sicily is documented) although maybe my joke about Philip owing "milion silver dinars" to Miluten is not at place, but who knows ... also Miluten talked to "first popes" drafted by Philip etc etc. For all readers continentally, there is funny anecdote on subject and how Miluten said to papal envoys once, maybe in humoristic way (our rulers had some sense of humor) "I'd gladly convert but i'm afraid of my mother and older brother" funny reply, esp, if we know that his mother was French ; and so on...

mentioning Miluten also small mistake i made is that he actually took Durazzo before removal of pope and returned it in year of pope removal... also minor mistake if we consider that Philip already was preparing "firm grip" on institution and that there were French popes, who showed pro-French policy leanings, before move to Avignon and possible beating of Boniface etc etc. but it was "bang"

hope i enjoy small video and you comprehend who Miluten was ; ...important to say that he (importnat also for understanding if he was "anti-French" really) took Durazzo from Byzantines after they re-conquered it from Angevines briefly... always mind that, including myself. After that he returned but Byzantines offered him to get closer with them, while he still maintained contacts with French, as talked. super subjects, something even of some weight for continental history...

[Ale]

so to lay theories, true medievaists or "romanisti" (for example knowing old Rome details, take any older history theme) would know, you have to have some "solid base" or at least "could have been" assumption, based on something that did happen... again, while my "Serb silver dinar" theory is fun (to me) and it seems as complete joke and i extensively use it as a joke all to Napoleon, there is (as i also talked) base for claim - as in Philip's time Italian cities were full of Miluten's dinars, some less some more but esp. Bologna and partly Firenze (Flora-, always forgot) etc. It is not because they are Italian and beutigul or something third - they were financial centers of the time, Philip's. So joke based on facts, if you get it..... if you thought that it is funny because Miluten paid dear cousin Philip to "beat the pope" (it is in a way funny) not aimed at that and Miluten is specific as talked to both previous Italian popes, the one poisoned but also first "fully French" appointed by Philip, no involvement Philip acted alone on this ...jokes aside, always mind some interesting historical details I gave without hiding, not so much humor or half-humor... it turned that way that our two most prominent kings were (one emperor) well meybe not in epicentre but in degree of imprtance to French "foreign affairs" as Pierre Thomas explained in his chronicle after meeting our king "...in light of very complex geopolitical situation we couldn't support Dushan". So there is to add i.e. repeat (as true knowledgeable know already) from our side on whole "French issue" simce Philip, i'm only flattered to be able to add detail or two while lower ranking Templars did migrate to Serbia in some numbers (we had interestin names as Baldovin i.e. Baldwin in state right after Philip rule) it is also important to note that Miluten (and Dushan) regularly had contact with French and Avignon, that Miluten was informed by Clement's envoys about decision to "disband Templars" and similar themes - it is not matter of sympathy for example in case of Philip but i'm just presenting true details etc etc etc.

for the end, while in the mood... i also make some "medieval memes" i.e. funny texts sometimes on med pics, for example i like few i made with Italian pastoral life from XIV and added text like two people close on pic talking "I was rich lord before i started taking loans in Serb dinars!" and similar... so in that sense, French wouldn't mind my humor as they are "satirists", while on subject of Avignon (i finish but always join if something new) to add this i got idea...

photo of Avignon and ex-papal offices etc. and also famous (did not visit town yet) "unfinished" medieval bridge (it is ruined by floods etc). I'd humoristically say on it - Avignon fell into financial troubles, hence unfinished bridge, after Miluten took Albania from France! ... great themes there, humor aside - thank to also some French historians to explaining me that we were close until the fall actually and that there are some representations of our battles and CoAs in famous French castles really would like to hear from you if you read or follow themes, in some "fresh" sense etc. i'll pause but again, take some parts seriously

[Ale]

...i'd also like to add i.e. to all continental readers (interesents on subjects) who maybe read my (often comical again) posts for longer and since first i made iirc in Bombast's "Portugal castles" thread ) and why it almost seems like "he talked this first now this" or "inconsistent to self" (as it really look like that esp. on France and Capetian subject)... so why is that and why i changed some ideas and "retracted" about Capets/Philip/Avignon in part? ; ...to understand that to say that our sources (sometimes seen on few pages in Wiki) are bad, ruined and not so detailed or comfirmed at few places like for many major countries or WE countries... enough for understanding is to say that we have 3 dates alone for birth of most prominent ruler (Dusciano) i.e. 1308, 1310 or 1312 and no consensus even on that for example - let alone other things... some are better confirmed some less, but generally main reason why i sometimes said something, pardon. So just imagine if every French or Italian document (about us) survived on just those 50 years, would be maybe different... generally excuse if indeed there were "inconsistences" but that's partly why i like this all and when you add Philip, Clement or Templars (ooooou) things are fun. sorry again, indeed different personal picture about France and us in total

we are not gonna theoritise too much and be too "conspiratorial" but one fun or striking detail i learnt about things is that Clement (again first French pope "placed by Philip" and one in contact with Miluten) declared very, very rough crusade against Venetians why funny and as my heart is breaking as Vinegia is "mama" - and while reasons (sadly for my theory)) are of its own and because of one conflict Venetians were involved in on their own around Ferrara (Italian city) with "French papacy"... funny as Miluten was on own "black-list" by Venetians and in (luckily only legal and verbal, we are pals) conflict with Venice which drafted few laws against "Miluten's finance" to be followed around northern Italy ; ....so, in funny way, Miluten "whispered" few things to Clement about Venice too or to put it this way Philip and Miluten "alfa & omega" of European politics of the time again sorry for Vinegia, i support and love, ineterstingly that for centuries there was not a single pope to preach a crusade agains Rascia once

apropos Miluten - when you reject claims on his personality like that indeed even tried to blind his son Dechanski (think it was his stroy and lie to impress nobility how his "sights returned") and if you at least doubt 100% truthness of Byzantine claims about his "child wife" (he did not request from them again) as it was time to "sexually accuse" your enemies - you get a bit different picture on Miluten indeed, more favorable or inteligent - but far from saint or "holy king" as he was known around Europe (maybe becuase of activity in Jerusalem of own time). Just to note that narrative about Miluten's parsonality might be totally false, while times were bad and undemocratic and he as well, really ; ...also would like to repeat that Dante was very smart & informed man, from today perspective eben more visible...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8ikLPJgr00

i'm adding this totally unrelated to any of my subjects - did not watch this particular Brit-show but like the video and music score of it so for musical/epic intermezzo... esp. like "crescendo" and music in moment when Stephen (is that him as i didn't watch?) raise sword with "ornament", epic ...it is btw and agin not about any theme - mother of first Angevin king of England... always join let's make some friendship and theories )

[Ale]

also, to better understand it all if medieval interest is not so deep or with deep knowledge... i'll simplify a bit, so in advance apology to experts but i'm giving acceptable simplification...

it is not matter of any conspiracy, "evil plan" on either side - and let's say that Miluten's and Dushan's i.e. our was "imperial" or "ghibelline" but only loosly said, esp. in case of our emperor... it is question that dragged longer in Italy while it already lost substance in rest of Europe, Italians continued divisions and even added "black & white" factions to "Guelphs". French position was to gradually "replace old Hohenstaufen gradient with itself and Capetians" (again i'm symplifying for readers). Guess, in lack of documents, that Miluten found himself on that side, at least surely during Philip's life (and he outlived him for 7-8 years). In the same time, both Philip and Miluten (for example take any other ruler, English king, German rulers etc) already had other things on their mind, so i say it all "loosely" or simplified.... but very "alive" subject in Italy of the time so every stronger European king of the time (including Miluten) used Italy as some ground to "excercise own influence and find some support", besides having own bankers as talked... Miluten (already trying to prove himself as "good French" in Albania action before) probably gained some "green light" but not to act alone exclusively... etc etc etc. Generally super subject but really complicated to find "truth" or exact currents, financial and political of each of them, esp. with internal Italian divisions, which other European monarchs did not even care about as much, as said. Italians, as Dante expressed in work, "were offended" by each of king and popes from own side etc. And hated us all Very complicated - till today historians do not know exact "white-black", this count, that count extent...

but i started with something else and changed subject - it was not some "unseen conspiracy" by French or our side... Templars, i'd dare to say, in one moment obviously took some side in financial directions, hence known history... again, i'm only glad we can add or say something. Ferrara is, btw, very close to Bologna (which Miluten penetrated) so it fits... etc etc. hope you like it all and is a bit closer to understanding, but i just simplified... generally, what is "greatest discovery" (but unimportant to whole Europe) for us is that French briefed us, there was some "symetry in actions" all to Jerusalem even, contacts with Mongols even by both our kings, and that Milutin was badass

and so on i see/know (as all) that it is always interesting subject globally (or at least Europe & NA) so like to add, think i layed solid themes here and if you are to add or lay own interest, always welc. deep, complicated and interesting - but nice "pun theme" i could share... always mind that it is all "top secret" and dangerous to talk about ; - just look at Venice fate

[Ale]

...also to say - sadly no Templars (fired long time ago), Clement nor clear conspiracy ) - but is interesting to both our and Venetian (Vinegian as known for all) history and our relations which are good and that that indeed there was something inthere on all that clash between us and them around Bologna, Ferrara etc whole region... of course for Venice more than that as it was Italian land, but for us maybe something deeper... and it was not about "falsificated money" at all

we were able to determine, again lack of documents to clearly confirm all so just interesting facts, that another "war" (in very few wars in 300 years) was again fought between Venice and Serbia (then called despotate, very much independent although not maybe "de jure" for all etc) in start of XV c i.e. 100 years later, during our "despot" Stefan L. who just again got very close with "imperial" faction i.e. German (and Hungarian) ruler Sigismund. France was in some troubles, and not so "visible" in this story. Concidence or not (i doubt) but Venetians again were involved in some actions and "annexations" of Este family (of "Guelphs" but imperial in Philip's time, so simple)) and some battles - as we couldn't reach then also were fought in Dalmatia (where Serbs and Venetians advanced on eachother forts briefly) etc... so what are we looking at, again in theoretical sense - that Serbia (even long past glorious line of kings) maybe defended some interests in Bologna/Ferrara region (Este possesions etc)... without docs only interesting but i doubt coincidences...

Serbia was soon after gone, but Burgundian/French traveler and spy Bertradon de la Broquierre (sorry France typing from head)) called last despot (now George) "richest monarch of Europe"... less important for stories 100 years before but first one of "our possible" interests in Bologna-Ferrara region quite possible... it was all knightly between us and Vinegia btw, and for centuries later there was no Italian to hate us ; ...great stories if you connect it. Sharing as i like, if someone else catched something, great

[Ale]

...and finally to add or repeat ) to round our influence on all things Philip imagined ) - why was SU IV Dushan (only nick and for Italians they were all known either as Stefan or Urosh/Orosio etc. as confirmed on graves in Italy) was "specific" and maybe "unapproachable" by many... he liked Vinegia, safe to say, above all but reasons were maybe personal as he was "enraged" by Hungarian king (Anjou-Capet) Louis in last 13 years of his life who, if not stopped him - at least constantly "kept him busy" in northern borders and "mined" deeper ties with "mainstream" France, for example... they met "tet-a-tet" at least once, maybe more and conversation/s was allegedly very tough and rough, tense but they reached peace in last years also uncomfirmed but safe to say that Dushan was on his road south again (must have been very tired going up and down constantly) where he died... but we do not have clear confirmation that indeed he captured Durazzo again for example, maybe not... anyway, what is clear is that he gave order to his "capitains" (Dushan) that any fort or stronghold in "Dalmatia" in case if undefendable or close to fall "should be handed over to Venetians" if he is south, in Greece etc. Vinegia is only country he offered to divide Byzantium eventually, with geographically huge concesions like Epirus, half of Consant etc etc. So specific position and was "unreadable" when it comes to, for example, Italian policies everyone led and similar... some positions and I guess repeat if i talked, but nice time to repeat...

...finale or "crescendo" ) is George B. finally devaluating Serb dinars, most important question for Venice for 150 years as finally they could fortify Este afterwards ; and also agreed that, "Venetians should take our forts" etc. Montenegro wasn't planned ....IDK - as all, very sorry that Dushan's tomb and all papers were ruined as would give deeper picture why he was "specific" but i think that Venetians just wanted that we conquer America with their gelleys ...in general, that is it and our things in those very interesting maybe 50, maybe 100 years - if other detail worth having for some picture i rememeber, will tell... but pause not to end like HIM

[Ale]

also, who cares for details, above is most probable foreign policy (bit rebellious) but internally SU IV had similar ideas to Philip IV relating church, as you probably will never read yourself to give why... He (probably) placed personal friend and ex-non cleric as first Serb patriarch... everything is doubtful in lack of all docs, but most likely man whom he made patriarch (and who later crowned him as imperator) was previous "logothete" or SoS (state sec) ; ...second SU IV allegedly also prepared or raised accusation of highest cleric on Mt Athos for "heresy", to maybe place own administrator and man... in that sense both "IVs" very similar - just our king did not burn or "pill the skin" from anyone ; ... but "own administartors" idea similar if not copied from Philip.

when it comes to influences - and i finish with it - that he spent few childhood years "evicted in Constantinople" where Miluten sent family of son as punisment after son, Dechanski, tried to rebel... wasn't some punisment in fact as it all impressed young kid Dushan who obviously was obsessed with not Byzant that much, but i'll say Rome as whole... "germanic guard", Latin coins, "kesar" (although maybe used in Greece is pre-classical Latin word from ancient Rome), besides Greek coins, Greek use etc. It was some old Rome idea in his mind but mixed with modern themes and Justinian etc etc. and he tried to "return Romea to roots" in friendship with Italians (for own sense of grandeur probably).... personal opinion based on all seen, but ultimately not so crucial what exactly influenced/motivated him - but just btw, doubt that he copied Germans, Franks, Byzant, Bulgars exclusively - it was Italians that he liked & am glad (it is rare, nice thing) that Dusciano was "liked" among Italian intelectuals or just those who (even wrongly) knew some things, he had positive image there - rare thing in Europe when nations are different.

i always say it is nice, fun, cute but unimportant theory maybe based on "Servian wall" in Rome or knowledge that important Roman legions or instalations were around, something third but nothing to dislike there as fun or something to joke with Italians, we calling towns "Ruma" as Etruscans, some called both us and Italians "Vlachs" once, somtimes they say "Romans" to us we say "Romans" to them etc. Just joking lightly in the end but was serious & that much from me!

[Ale]

to say also this, while on subjects ) always was "hurt" (not really but so to say) by level of "historical hijack" we all did to Italians in Europe... when you imagine that (for unimportant example) there is almost "argument" about some words, and practices related for words, of "this or that (our) nation" like for example minister in our middle ages "kaznac" (royal treasurer). Root and practice is Venetian, present also in wider northern Italy (Flora)... as said totally unimportant example, there are millions of not only words but greater things we all inhereted from Italian (region) practice, so in a way we are all funny with our emperors and similar to Italians but when Italian nationalist like Gabriele says it was "Latin" it was "Latin"

already talked before iirc, since i mentioned, that we in (Serbo-Croat, some are wider some only in our) language have really thousands of "italianisms" and i remember that i clearly gave some from head then (meta, kurva, mator, mater etc etc) but will add just more fast "ochi, desno, miliarda, bandera, medalja, bataljon, pijaca, penzija, imbecil, kravata, sigurno etc".... of course there is always that "Indo-european root" trick but i'm sure that all i gave we accepted from Italians... not so important for huge debate but yes

why idea and all that? Idk, think Dushan was fair in some way to say "I am gonna (try) make empire but will share with Italians" or similar... not so important subject, but i quasi noticed that "fairness" line in him ) (and also that French queen was important for our "success", for example)

[Ale]

my impression is that people are often "too literal" or "unhumoristic" and many often see one word and think "haaaa... i got it" while they do not get it at all generally, so any reader not to think it is Gabriele only (like him but it was for humoristic effect) - there was "positive image" for centuries on Dalmatian coast (or part of it) and Italian lands, by various intelectuals or some to that extent. So not only Gabriele it was centuries long process in Italian lands, Dusciano donated Bari (city in Italy), donated Franciscans and regulated some "supply issues" with whom our mission in Jerusalem cooperated closely then also, and similar... etc. Gabriele is for me important but good for drama/humor effect... btw, regarding "Italian factions" since on subject, Italian authors in book printed during "falschism" even put Serbia in middle ages (in some book about European royals) on second place after German empire on front page - doubt it was political statement, but generally Italians appreciated or "thought dearly" that we gave them importance in those days etc. etc.

did i tell before - the end - that HIM is in the end, after also few decades long "internal drama" in Serbia i.e. Yugoslavia then, so only after few decades since his remains were found in 1920s placed with "sarcophagus" in St Mark's church, Belgrade, with church procession but was "drama" before... It is one of more visited places by (not so numerous) foreigner tourists, maybe because of his tomb - so a bit of "poetic justice" ; ...his real tomb - unsurvived - did take (or relatively) form of Vinegian St Mark, with rich mosaics and probably artefacts and docs - and Venetian was modeled by one that once stood in Constant etc. For end - there are fun theories about "who had interest" his church and docs to disappear - some our clerics, "Phanariots" in then Istanbul, Turks (probably least) i.e. local Ottoman administration (which did ruin it but maybe by some "desire" from other place) some secretive knightly orders a la Templars etc etc etc. All nice stories and adding to atmosphere dragged from XIV, and Philip )

since i nicely talked some dear subjects and rounded many things, even "retracted" in relation to sister France i.e. relative Philip ) - also to add that i still resepct highly some works of Umberto Eco (our university honorar doctor) and agree on few things, but a bit different picture on Miluten etc... end, hope was interesting - but would always like to hear your interest....

[Ale]

as i've said "Bari, city in Italy" before, to correct myself as most Italians would actually say: "Bari is not Italy!" (just joking, something based on sport and not Italians))

something else seriously - but i finished as nothing substantial for greater picture to add - reason why medieval esp. high and late for us, as in previous history we have only remarkable story how "we captured Boris and his sons" (or just sons) after battle and gave him slaves after in some Carolingian period until Roger II of Sicily contacted us again etc... lost sentence, so reasonwhy is so interesting is those puzzle details and fake narratives

so what is also interesting (spent some time) as Dushan's greater "Italian policy" (except Venice) financial, or influence vise is unreadable as i said - and not so sure, jokingly said, what/whome he donated in Bari exactly i.e. why it was so interesting for him... so humoristically but based on truth - in his time Bari was spot of "Roger II castle" i.e. Norman and later Hohenstaufen so interesting for us, Venetian then smaller presence also, but also seat and base of Teutonic knights, so funny Later, after we disappeared it was ruled partially (via wife of Sforza count) by Este family which gave it some rise, it also fits in some theories of some our ties etc.

whatever, great stories. always add, Umberto would be valuable for me but any interest, have many nice stories and interests in region maybe you know better...

[Ale]

interesting is - also remembered this for end - that some social researches (it is not pure science but more social look) showed that Serbs are few times more likely to say "ciao" in personal converstion, even more than Croats who also use it... of course "ciao" is Italian greeting, of Venetian origin and similar, used as motto among slave traders

IDK, like any theories but what in factual historical sense always amazed me is that marriage with Dandolo queen and why we both decided to tie in time when "Dandolo name" wasn't so popular across regions, even to Italian popes etc. of course Anna is not Enrico, despite family name... but if we are to theorise again, maybe Italians or northern Italians etc. also appreciated that moment how we bravely took Dandola in times when they were "satanized" and maybe why some liked us there... and so on, even i nor anyone don't know what's behind some sympathy between Rascia and some Italian regions once etc except some mutual interest - but it did get rough during Miluten and Clement.....

nice stories. the end before you join )

[Ale]

i think subject is at least interesting if not important but for us medievalists it is... looked first time at English Wiki page on Enrico and see that it placed him, in "legacy" paragraph, as "ancestor of whole Serbian royal (glorious i'd add) family of Nemanides - what he was indeed but from maternal line (always less valued back in middle ages, but i give it equal importance) so nicely formulated there. And sounds bit like Romulus and Remus (or Eaneaus from Troy by legends)) were ancestors of our previous ancestors, so again nicely formulated paragraph... and we accept it as such fact, although not sure if flattering or "satanized" feeling ahould prevail So more Jupiter in case of our Nemanides but OK, Dandolo as well... if you add Philip to the bunch, really nice relatives of our kings

In defense of Enrico - whom Anna knew very well as she was born in XII century (probably but that later) - of course he was blind... When sailing in crusade one of his capitanos said to him after short sail "Il Dogo, we are gonna anchor now", Enrico ordered "Attack!" as he was blind and that they were around Zara (today Zadarwith Croats, pirates and Hungarian overlordship) not holy land. Later, after few days of sail his capitano said "Il Dogo, we are gonna anchor now" and Enrico, being blind, ordered "Attack!" not realizing they were at Constantinople and not holy land yet... not his fault )

most seriously and of course, of course whole those events had its prelude and Byzantines were "no angels" from their side, at times rough treatment of Vinegians etc etc. all known facts, so Enrico wasn't some devil as well... however, interesting for us, just recently occurred to me that whole story our later king Stefan U III "Dechanski" used of his "own blindness and divine intervention" might be some variation of legend (i.e. fact) about Enrico, almost in a way as Roman emperors used legends about own "ancestors" as sign that they are chosen etc. super if indeed something like that, nice idea by SU III, "blind" but suddenly great.... (maybe he planned attack on Constantinople as well)

finally about dear Anna, without argument for us very important and living legend.... remembered that i read somwhere - it was some time ago and i don't even know where i read it as i read many things - maybe some Italian source that she in fact married Stefan whole 10 years before date we all accept as correct, hence during life of Enrico and before attack on Constantinople. Might be just theory by some Italian historian and not accepted but fact at all by all of us, but interesting to mention as existing theory.... so sequence of events would be that she married our king during both life of Enrico, her father Raniero and before attack on Constant etc. to repeat as interesting theory i once read... in the same time older brother of our king Vukan was married to Italian Conti di Segni family wife and after fall of Constant "civil war" between two brothers started, resulting in Stefan and Anna victory etc. Theory...

in any way, only survived photo of Anna (from Dushan's tomb))... beautiful woman, so nice. When Stefan put one mask down, there was another beneath and when he out it down.... he fastly put both back Just joking, Anna most beuatiful of all, most loved queen of bit un-royal origin but we made her empress Always wondered, as whe lived whole 30 years longer than Stefan and stayed in Serbia (which she had not been obliged) - did she live whole 30 years without lovers... nice stories, hope you appreciate but always add your own...

[Ale]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gamop1nv4NY

to add also this, all interconnected and not directly, but yes... when you listen it - whoever listened to Greek song before - it indeed when sung have some similarity with spoken Greek... plus most likely this is how "Byzantine chants" or songs sounded, more closer to Roman original like in this song, than western chants/music... but Latin language so indeed... and, we know from region - indeed Latin is more similar to "ekavian dialiect" of Slavic vernacular speeches than any "ajkavian", "ikavian" or "ijekavian", we "expert" noticed that instantly and is something noticeable even if not expert... BTW, "ekavian" both Bulgars and Serbs claimed as "their own" and is oldest recorded (on paper) of all south Slavic dialects etc. It is characteristic for most of today Serbia (except eastern in part and southeastern) and only some eastern parts of today Bulgaria... so we concluded that it "was born" somewhere in those regions i.e. maybe Singidunum-Naissa-Macedon-east Bulgatria line under heavy influence of Latin and Greek. As it was region of "heavy" Roman presence via legions and "imperial cities" we connected it with vernacular Latin inflence etc etc. Latin was born in region between Greek and Etruscan "touch" always mind... and why some of "Serb" pronounces indeed sound "Etruscan" etc etc. All super and worth knowing, but hardly now medieval subject per se

if you listen to song you notice, just btw, another "latinism" in Serbo-Croat i gave many before i.e. "procedite" ; sometimes our words do not have exact Latin meaning, but are based on them - in this example "to find way forward" i.e. "cediti" in our as in like throught something tiny, small, grind etc. etc. All super, worth knowing again.

[Ale]

somehow, when you connect the dots and must say after some thinking ) philosophically.... reason why some disliked us (to say that for example) wasn't some "Serbs are eastern or Slavic or this or that" reason.... it was because maybe they seens as "Romans more" or "imperialistic" or "atavistic but in cool way", something like "Romans killed Christ" and similar. philosophically speaking, similar to some "dislike" of Italians etc.

that said, doubt that anyone "hated us completely" nor it was ever some general idea, just some philosophical look as said.

Btw, for understanding of previous post it is important to correct own mistake (multiple)) although clear what regions i meant from my other words... so wherever I used "eastern" (Serbia, Bulgaria) it should be "western" but clear i think for any reader.

older history is cool, even this alone as small example song "goes through our veins" till modernity I'd say... it mentions "trumpet call" even, line from one XIX-XX c Serb nationalistic/patriotic song etc etc. how not to like those subjects when told honestly and with some theories that can "disbalance everyone's narative" above all... funniest of all is that sometimes theory (like that mentioned by i think Italian historians) has more logic than "official history". I always say our history was more richer and enigmatic than what we all think we know... And so on, always join if you thought yourself about any events from history

[Ale]

"Sumus quarta Legio Felix Flavia.... mmmmmm, ooooo la la la" ...trance. that's us undobtedly and together here, we could only profit with nice monuments about our Roman past and Italian ties...

also to add this for story, super one.... first dominant "ekavian" king was many mentioned Miluten, from whose time confirmed documnets with "e" date. Half-French, quarter Italian himself, and first one who started to look at own time Serbia as "imperial" etc. So bit of "panic" to sister Vinegia etc. all events as i talked... very likable, enigmatic but with clear "chain of events" and own logic stories.

in some political sense - for us knowledgeable unimportant for sceince and true history - nobody in the west nor here in region should not fall into "trap" that those events had anything to do with modern subject... for unimportant example back then our "main struggle" wasn't with Albanians at all (they looked differently then and often accepted "Serb return" peacefully) struggle for centuiries was with Bulgaria for some regions, which once fortified by Serbs gave it "old imperial" sense etc. (but doesn't mean we should start a war with Bulgaria)) And so on... also people for example in "Anglo-Sexon" world did not get completely (all up to ww2) that love between Italians and Serbs (which had tense moments) as narratives were wrong, so in a sense telling this stories again is nice, above all as they are super interesting and date back to - i'd say - indeed Felix (then called Macedonica) legion events

and that's it, to me super and interesting, why shouldn't it be to all (quasi) history lovers, so share... Italians, must say really again and not because of principessas ) smart and helpful for all this and "preserved this all" almost unaware, but fair and when you connect it all clear why they sometimes called our history "our" i.e. their without them we would've been lost. great song the end.

[Ale]

also this, for small example why "knowledge is power"... English wiktionary page on word "bre" which is in our language "demi-word" or "word without meaning"

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bre

it says in Albanian it is from Greek (correctly) but it says that in Serbo-Croatian (and Romanian etc) it is from "Ottoman Turk" ...so pure example of fake science - as word we did not accept from Turks but from Greeks (as well as others) in centuries and centuries of life before Ottoman rule... if it was from "Ottoman" it would be most used in Bosnia for example, while in reality the ones who use it the most are Serbs, esp. "Serbian Serbs", ekavians ;

etc etc. small and unimportant example but just to say how wrong perceptions and knowledge existsaround even among Serbs and other "Serbo-Croat" users. While it has nothing in specific with Turks - same is perception that Serbo-Croat accepted many Italiansms from German, while doubtful because of ties with Italians and geography etc. Latinisms are the best in our - the words even Italians do not use but were present in Latin and again in Serbo-Croat (maybe Romanian sometimes etc). And that's beutiful and true science and why liked so much and shared with you those great words like "kesar" "kelie" "bres" etc. (no, not from Ottoman)) and so on... so there was rich and cultural previous history and ties with Greco-Roman world, the most in medieval Serbia... so we are precious for other in "Serbo-Croat" linguistical corps as we know and we can explain some forms for example, etc. For Italians we are precious as we can explain them Rome really finished, but hope any reader get richer after reading, but always expecting you princip-essa ; from Vinegia ...btw, Anna was "alpha & omega" of our politics for 50 years, almost like that Brit Maud/Matilda (hence tank) - don't get my previous post wrong

[Ale]

to say also this, while on subjects as is cute example.... word "tata" for father is different example, but cute. it is short for "father" allegedly from "Ottoman" while i don't know real root and not important for story... I'll explain why it was "forced" on "Serbo-Croats", as there is joke like "Turks made Serbs" i.e. "slept with all girls" etc. Many Serbs did not even live in "Turk reach" so it is funny.... however, real reason is that Serbs (and others) in fact used (along Slavic words) in great percent words "pater" i.e. "papa". Get it? ...and so on. many examples... while we are not "spreading any hate" and Greeks are sisters etc. we are just telling truth and "dark shadow" of "Phanariots/otes etc" over true history... same is with our mission in Jerusalem etc. etc. Greeks, educated and realistic, also know themselves and it is not political question today...

great stories, what else to say... they were all involved in our "decompassation" (great powers and some churches as said) from Habsburgs to Russia (which all drew maps of future divide for centuries) and all south empires, Ottoman, Albanians seen oportunistic moment, not because they are evil etc.... only Italians knew the truth for centuries, but they were "decompassed" as well etc etc. You get it, but let's say great stories, not today politics. Nice to tell, though for truth

even Montenegros got role of "Rastko" i.e. St Sava in events totally wrong and why he was the one to crown Stefan and Anna and not pope... not becuase he and Serb church was anti-Latin at all etc. same about HIM Dushan with totally misunderstood "Latin heresy" line etc. Great stories... for us Serbs it is more important they to be heard and understood than for reasons we want "everyone to return us "Mare Nostrum bassin" and similar.... and we are not forcing anyone to make definitive conclusions (as we do not have them also but we have ideas) just to think about all and give some credit to our and Italian conclusions etc. I really have many stories, but enough for interaction.... ;

[Ale]

also.... because tomorrow or two days it will be gone as thought - education as i said not so important when whole narrative is wrong and you have some wrong idea based on it but "best diploma" in the world in history. Worth 0% in this science and discipline, sad to say not to disappoint someone ) Nabulione - "kesar of France" (Napoleon) - said "To write history one have to be more than man etc" aiming at objectivity. so there are today historians with best diplomas in England (for example) but they are just telling same old story full of prejudices and minoirisation of someone's culture and intellect, again sad to say... but unimportant. To reply kindly, reasons why in XIX Britain (sorry Scots, but also taking whole country as example so sorry to English as well) had this or that stand (and mind it is one of first countries we had diplomatic relations with in modern era and Victoria was full of our medals) wasn't for any other reason than that they had huge plantations of opium in Turkey anyway, really wanted to correct myself here that "education and diploma" is not all... as for England, just pure example, we medievalists did get few nice ideas and attention from there on some our subjects, and isas said superb formulation on importance Vinegia gave to tie with Rascia

for humor, not to forget... local joke for history lovers - you know why Montenegro is smallest (population wise above all) state here? Because Venetians had many forts in small area there. (taken or given from us) ....apropos Vinegia again (as well vassal Ragusa of Dubrava) sister, and it saved all it could in documents and graves unlike some Austrian and French archives etc. Very helpful as they could, for example, also burn all about Anna (fra Mauro map as well) and say "No, there was never that marriage and our ties with them" ; the end. always join, always join, i'm expecting - we are all history lovers here

[Ale]

today only short, for eventual new readers, generally i talked it...

DAI (de administrando imperio) writen few centuries after "events" (and which is btw only source on subject that talks it at all) by Byzantines/Romeans talks about Croats more, but about Serbs shortly and it doesn't specify "which ethnicity" is tribe... interesting is that by it Serbs arrived where they live today (Australia)) from south as Byzantines of the time thought... what is concludable from such source - not to be disregarded as well as short lines about battle with Boris - is that Byzantines purely expressed "fantasy" i.e. did not know much about tribe at all, mixed with Slavic migrations by then, casting doubt at narrative that "old Serbs" arrived at all or that they were not "pushed or caved" for a moments (few centuries))... so any theory is viable in that sense as well as one we and sisters expressed if you get that fact right... again only short and surely repeat to newer readers... Personally, don't see any "heresy" nor "impossible!" reason why would not it be mixed with Slavic tribe, while in fact on Balkans some "ghost Roman legion" (as i like to put for drama effect) which accepted language of majority around... BUT with huge, huge enigmas and many Latin words and forms even Italians changed by then... today it is "Slavic speaking country" so it doesn't change reality, but explains something else... even think that people from region should better understand us, by accepting it even partly etc.

scientifically, what personally fascinated me is not DAI or any source - it is that "letter and forms thing"... Latins invented "g" to replace (at places) "c", what we did as well in examples, most famous word "gusar" from Latin "c" in front... how the hell did they know etc. etc. you get idea and small intro relationg DAI etc.

[Ale]

also for newer readers (and epic cinema knowers) but also as means to summarize in one thread, last one anyway if we stay around so it is your last chance to find me...) but in any way spreading it is enough for me

why IV Flavia Felix (ex-Macedonica tha one which killed itself few times from Caesar onwards) fits so well... as (by some, by some maybe not) it disappeared (again maybe, there are disagreements about our history) from Singidunum around times of Diocletianus (again some say not) not so much maybe related to some his "religious purges" and similar, but some border and security reforms and provincial changes etc etc. Best part - in some Serb mythology (dating maybe to Roman times) Diocletianus is sometimes "main antagonist" so we Felix legion remembered him well, cute And Dusciano desire to put "capital" in some "Macedon" for example...

all super and possible, love every part of what we were but we are ready to excuse for some things ) .... for humor, talking about tanks and Anna - for modern efile history lovers "Tanko" used in Venetian war of independence and famous "battle for Doge's palace" in 90s ...really would like "our lion" to rise again as flag, but I also like whole Italy, Rome, Di Segni girls etc. always would like to hear from you on some future and possibility to share Rome - for example you keep tourists and population and we profit ) ....don't mind pic (it is true historical detail btw), just like to put some pics sometimes. Main idea of this post was to share/repeat to our readers that Felix details and our relation with Dio... it fits, doesn't it

[Ale]

also to me and readers are interesting those names like Branus for our rulers (from Carolingian period and also that crush of Boris)) so i suspect also knowledge of some "old Balkan history" (i.e. Celtic, which we conquered)... toponyms etc. but anyway Roman past more or less confirmed, something else, which is fun to be told

di Segni or Conti as known in med Rome and surrounding... while "our line" did not stop with Dandolian-Felix ; win and with "primogenture denied" (which was deal) it continued to exist and have some influence, probably in western parts of country... suspected is that maybe some character from epic poems "whose nine sons died in battle in 1389" are descendants of that line Vukan-Conti girl (maybe again, bad sources and maybe divorces etc). I think that folk epic makers wanted to emphasize "with nine dead sons" (probably not true as our rulers rarely had many kids) that such line remained "loyal to Rascia" till end and similar... also is supsected that wife of Lazar and wife of Vuk Brankovic were of that line, hence with possible di Segni mix etc etc. nice

for our readers is interesting what was going on with main Conti line in Italy i.e. Rome and around... it also remained powerful through period important for us, why i say something that "Serbia was untouchable for popes, and rather listened than hated". Fun moment is that some possessions and objects in Rome changed hands few times (maybe peacefully so they cooperated) between di Segni and family of pope Boniface, beaten by Philip by Miluten's order all super, so you get idea what had happened there also and that indeed our rulers where very close to "main European events" if we get facts straight. hope it's clearer, super again... but i only use minimum of words and try to be interesting... so i think it is both interesting for our and Italian history lovers

[Ale]

...Celts i.e. Gauls (as there is slight distinction), to say to ancient history lovers, did not only "live in Serbia" or even "centered some state around bassin ekavian Serbs did as well" later but did have tribe (smaller but known) named Serdi... as "d" is only "b" in mirror (and Greeks often got their letters wrong)) make your own conclusions, but too gross... same is with "Ibar" close to which center of later Serb state was close etc. IDK, but due to linguistic reasons, mythology and later organisation it "smells Roman more" to me. Vinegians, btw, have similar theories of own origin so not definitive... Also is interesting that in "Balkan" history (maybe other parts of continent) there is always some "cyclical repeat" in some narrative i.e. numbers - for example, Dusciano quasi had "80000 strong army" as well as "Brennus", "some going behind Greek back" at Thermoplylae by both Celts and Persians (although not related), some "river of doom" for both Celts and even Serbs at Maritsa etc etc.

language says Romans, but Celt influences not impossible.... what we concluded that we did have many Celtic wives lovely stories, how to dismiss any theory when just one letter differential of both "Serdii" and "Serbii" and "Servii" and "Serbii" etc. but again that linguistical thing and fact that Serb ekavian is most similar to Latin and Italian dialects won me... what you think ;

[Ale]

problem is with modern historiography that it "abandoned" i.e. minimalized some theories i.e. views (often older) that they considered either "imperialistic or nationalistic or chauvinistic etc." but which were in fact possibly true, and not malicious at all if understood properly... Italian ideas (on us, not them)) are good example. In some political "struggle" that is always ongoing, truth was often victim... but as said not so important - for example i don't see any harm in eventual scientific look and conclusion that "old Serbs" maybe found today's Bulgaria capital (as Celts)) or were Italian in nature or origin (rulers) etc etc. In fact it doesn't harm our perfect relations with anyone but only makes are closer or more interesting to someone else etc. Talked it, did not I, but to summarize again why I never rejected some fascinating theories that might be in fact true, but apolitically. Gabriele, again was/is good historical example for eternity - on us, he maybe knew whole "truth" but is controversial i.e. figure conected with something bad etc. But still doesn't mean he was wrong ) Same is Italian "unpleasure" to look at Roman ceremonies i.e. aquilas etc. as this is "bad". Poor Roman sisters and bad image from modern times... summary, but not so important

to continue semi-humoristically - reason why Miluten and our ruling caste "disliked" Boniface (hence beating)) is that, as was legend and as Dante said - he ruined, during some family/influence fights among Italian families - some cities and the one which included home of Iulius Caesar i.e. Kesar as we say cute, unforgivable for Felix-Dandolides ....btw, Dante also expressed many stories about those time, for example by him (iirc) Philip "I'm France" IV died during hunt or shortly later in incident that included something like wild boar attacking him/horse iirc etc. lovely stories, as well as those Italians (as i once talked in post) contemporary Italians in XIV believed or talked about our events, often legendary but hardly true... for example one XIV commentator of Dante work in Italy, believed legend how "Miluten imprisoned harshly, even blinded son"... and similar. However, Dante knew much better and gave some satirical lines... to this day i believe that his line was ironical in sense "ehe, look at this devil, daring to falsificate Vinegian money" and maybe satirized Venice (which he quasi liked)

for end, really would like to be able to interview Nabulione on what he really knew as he was into older history and did he say ...bit disappointed that for few years i tried to rise some themes, there was no interest in forums where i considered people like even older themes, but what to do, glad i shared.... also, quick remember story that "Brennus" (or as we said properly -anus, which was normal) died of (without water) wine and Dushan also died of poisoned wine, by legend etc. He was very much into Vinegia whcih is also probably cute lie, but taking it sometimes/often was normal... always join again, no shame to "vivisect" Philip for example ) ...i asked French historians was that legend about French and foreign woman, kissing and touching when nobody did that - myth or truth, but got no answer.... Disappointed but i did my best to raise subjects i like...

[Ale]

to say also this, all belonging to same "opus" or themes as i know them, more or less as nobody knows them except really knowledgebale Italians... but we Serbs as were very much "implicted" in their creation dare to say sometimes... i always restrain myself when puting posts but later i think "why did i not tell this" so few more thoughts... so Italy as some conclusions and things. When you connect dots i.e. know some things historically you understand even some things today... for example - unimportant but to say and short - people do not understand completely that "northern separatism" or idea in Italy and sometimes wrongly equalise it with something that is "Roman imperialism", but in fact northern separatist dislike "Rome domination" and (often but not all), Roman ceremonial or symbolism as (in some satirical sense said) "Rome is their supressor" etc etc. to simpify for fun (as well as some big E countries)... and, to return to history, people doesn't always understand Italy in middle ages and "finesses" on Vinegian stand (a bit different than other norther Italy and a bit "Roman influence" copy but also paradoxically not in some love with "Rome"), Tuscan one, or Bologna one... not to mention Genova etc. you get some ideas it is a bit delicate and crude, one way subject... Same is our position as we also support northern Italians, but in the same time (as Romans)) we cannot simply take same stand in relation to Rome ...as i put before. "Vinegia would be great but di Segni..." etc... in any way, seems that for world it was much greater priority to deny Serbia "mare" i.e. ports than Italians themselves as naturally once Serbs get to sea they imediately start thinking "Mare Nostrum" lovely subject, we and Italians, maybe central to whole our history ;

since mentioned "Italy in middle ages", unimportant but as theme - for laics it is often seen how "Italy wasn't really present in middle ages" (naively said) and it was about "powerful" France, English kinghts, German empire etc. Italy was (naively) "just land anyone could enter" ("even" Miluten, but he was among more powerful))... what wanted to say... in fact Italy in meds was country with greatest "kill ratio per capita" in Europe so indeed they remained good fighters, esp. praised in Rascia, but not only fighters, we used them as intelectuals but also principessas )... etc, good one to say.

for end, to encourage Italians on some historical views (on us) - it was often through history that those who were right were minority in same time ...not important bit was like that maybe so our claim on whole Italy is only legal )) thanks for help. the end now, hope you read it but sadly forum time is bad... we are dying but join )

[Ale]

to summarize also this, both from previous posts but from logic as well...

all said wasn't some fun or humor, it was truth or closest version of it... why hiding, acting conspirative, turning "princes" into "principles", calling sisters names or similar, hiding great HIM Dusciano in some "kelies" and "kelars" for 40 (!) years just because he said "Kesar", bloody lodges and masks and who knows what not...

and was the reason why almost none - name it! - of Italian intellectuals or just political figures from XIX c onwards (before that they were only hiding as "top secret" there as well) was not to at least think or mention Serbia sometimes (some did more) - Mazzini, Garibaldi, Gabriele, kings of "Savoyan" dynasty etc etc. It was reason - i repeat - why Italian sculptor was chosen despite Austrian winning initially in rigged concurs ) to do us "Marcus Aurelius" statue in Belgrade, the one which previously did Dante with aquilas ) with "hidden meaning" only to blind ones etc etc etc. really miliarda of those details..... and ultimately why i say it is now time for huge boulevard, huge Anna to be seen from Venice, huge statue of Enrico (NOOO!...no Enrico)) huge truth and similar. to recapitulate it to readers... or should we again play games with sisters, keeping them in dark, why?

lovely, beautiful, what to say... hope you got intellectually richer with just few words of mine, as for me i enjoyed absolutely every moment and post since I remembered subject of importance somwhere around post about "why HIM was specific", but HIM as HIM not important at all that much... there are as seen, very many semi-conspiratorial details. Hope you like it, as i do...

one joke for end - who likes dark humor, but is only humor and not reality as we are "very good friends", so excuse in advance for dark tone but extremely funny.... you know why I believe that word "kravata" (tie) entered Serbo-Latin from Italy (and not German lands for example)... because back in early middle ages Serbs and Italians used to hang Croats together. very funny... love sisters and again only intent was to give to you one trully mysterious, truthful and above all love story with a lot of mental suspension and clues but with clear conclusions... so glad that such stories and some even "silethe" of truth survived so many centuries and is lovable story as ever the end, but honestly what is better to talk than this ;

[Ale]

only with "deep investment" in subject/s some things get clearer, more logical or probable... maybe huge fantasy - and i repeat for example that when it comes to Serbian church huge misconceptions are there, for example on Trieste in Italy where Italian artists worked on it, interior etc - fantasy above all because of size of modern Serbia (in pop above all) but i really beleive that many lines, many (quasi) details from history are fake, or if not 100% fake manipulatively used wrongly till today with (why it is fantastic idea) only aim to "divide Italians and Serbs"... i'm not talking religion at all, something else generally. in that sense "Latin heresy" line comes to mind, interesting is that no original of HIM's code survived, hence is there 100% garantee that he used it all and similar lines. Aim was not (with possible lie) Frnace or somone, it was to "hurt image" in Italy, for what it matters - and it did not... and similar. Simply life and other details negate it,including Vinegian citizenship for HIM... not most important subject on earth, but why not thinking about it as well...

unimportant but even small detail of "incredible urge" by Serbian academy to save "Tabula Traiana/anu.." during rise of river which included big engineering push to "cut hill" is clearer Misconception is that our history was "privileged" in any way during those decades as it was only (except HIM) during 70s and 80s that some churches gained "protected status", even UNESCO patronage later..... to go back to previous paragraph - i'm getting so suspicious that i even doubt own line about "Lesnovo fresco representing HIM trully" at all, maybe not who can guarantee ;

there was only one Genoese (origin) woman in our (top) ruling circles (many in lover ranks) in our meds... but she was never represented (as despot's Stefan wife) on any fresco, pic, nor generally "anyone ever seen her" and is mentioned only once in source... i concluded that it was because she looked like Sabrina and wasn't really appropriate to represent her truly kiss... Anna 300 m big would be unique in Europe for med queen and memorable but as "most important figure for 50 years" in fact. Never get to me completely why few figures of importance did not get more "attraction for both us and Italians" marketing i.e. honor, esp. as we already honoured HIM with few big streets etc. Interesting..... but with this i finish my "Italian letters", lots of humor, lots of truth - generally think that story, pos. origin, ties etc. is known only in Italy, here to extent and eventually for "Brits", so nice stories in wrong time for forums ) the end.

[Ale]

to add also this - "temple" as we say for biggest church (and otherwise church says "temples and churches" in SC terminology, but biggest esp) not about Templars at all as i said (though they had some role in history), "Roman well" as we say for Austrian well (probably used before) in fort here, Boar as first flag of Serbs in modern times - not only that it is huge symbol in old Rome, symbol of many legions (Augustanus created if iirc) but also symbol that may "connect" Rome and Celts in a way as was Celtic also later "eaten" by mutated aquila as symbol, "struggle" for Kesar's calendar etc. etc. very, very many really

i mean i talked it before & only without much thinking and often more as "reflex or something from inside from bloody ancient genes" without truly connecting and creating complete mental picture - but when you connect it all in straight line it gets sense... unable to speak anymore, so just short how i interpretate some things now for readers. super, super... i just do not know is "kicking out" of our bloody "E" from some city names in Anglo-Sexon ) cities now in trend sign of anti-Roman i.e. our stand or someone else ....we were good civilization, and Italics incredible sisters... i'm positively shocked, nothing bad inthere

[Ale]

also this... for end ...maybe not Greeks i.e. "some Greeks" as i've put, we are just giving logical ideas, not conclusions... so, so. The truth is that (med) Greeks "were biased (naturally and nothing unhuman there) and angry but also smart in some ways"... our fault is that we also misunderstood some of their lines. Why angry first? Somehow it is (who knows ancient history) almost paralel in some of their lines on us and Romans (sometimes mutual), and Celts, as I've said - including "sexual degeneration" in way or another. Why smart? Because Greeks, without saying explicitely almost since DAI, connected us with some ancient tribes and it is wrong to conclude that they've ment some "Thracian" (as some concluded), Greeks just meant some tribe "from region" and they've meant maybe - again never said it again - some "Celts, Romans etc mix". In their eyes, as in later meds Rascia was "main western enemy", it looked as Romans or Celts from some their legends... so maybe not Greeks, but without any doubt "dark shadow" of some Greeks line is place... Serbs and Greeks didn't like eachother much (politically) but Greek lines are wrongly interpretated in sense that they did not see Serbs as "barbarians of new age" but they seen something ancient in them, hence many marriages etc - "so furs on themseves" is not "barbaric line" as ancient Greeks often seen Romans in that light etc etc. Phanariots something else etc... lovely subject as many, worth thinking from different angle... as for us, above all Miluten and Dushan - not so much religion or "against west or catholics" for them and hence famous hyperactivity - main idea was to prevent Byzantine i.e. as we always said Romean empire or state to ressurect in some significant form, above all... important. maybe all of them as i've said?

as for "E" shortly, as we also made it invisible - XIX c century labguage main reforist was from today western Serbia, not knowing all ekavian forms himself and reforms changed to extent (but not so hugely to be unrecognizable) old Serb ekavian etc etc. so indeed our old language was even more "Latin" (and Greek indirectly) sounding, vernacular above all and indeed those forms sometimes only church use now were "old Serbian language", including that we called vernacularly state and tribe Serbii, kesar, kelia, prokedite etc etc. just short why it lost some of it, but lovely still...

[Ale]

apropos Genoese girls i.e. wives - not to be misinterpretated (idiotically) ...while indeed for most part of med history it was "rival and enemy" due to our Vinegia (also cute exonym so i like to use it as is cute, but hate it wiyhout holy EE)) ties etc. and some say that later history activity of "Savoyans" was sweet revenge of "Genoese" on Serbs so also why put Napoleon in same humoristic (but truthful) idea ) etc. Humoristic line not to be understood as some "disrespect" and preference of "Venetian class" of ladies... put this way

if she was indeed there and Genoese and Sabrina like I understand despot Stefan 100% - I would as well be more skillful with fight and battle than with her - wouldn't last much long on that field ....lovely and clear hope i put it nicely as they were nice wives, although clearly not connected to all subjects, but it is as we were deeply involved in Italian divisions etc. the end in best way

[Ale]

btw, what i don't get is "if it was lie" (Sabrina) for example, why lie and why Genoese, so i doubt, what would be the benefit of it, except fight with Venice etc... if princess of Fridrih Habsburg "was lie" why her, why that family and so on.... thinking that someone killed our foreign women and getting angry

what i like about our medieval history is that it was so successful.... plan A "Byzant not to resurrect in any significant form" - 100% success. Plan B "prevent French penetration in some significant form" - 100% success. plan C "to replace Greek administration with else" - 100% success ...seriously i don't see it as position of greed or conquest, it had logic in own time as Serbia was strongest, most tied with west and with most western figters and most best fighters of the time (Italians) country of the time, so not illogical to try to do that "we will take over" thing.... interesting is question who did what, not political nor important but philosophical - and some look at it surely should include France i.e. Capetians, Hungary (not self-ruled often then) and some German royal houses etc. What i like that both first Roman emperor was Serb as well as last, only half ;

anyway, that's philosophy... for looks at relation between Greeks and us (and in some sense what Greeks knew about origin) I like very much also dialogues between Dushan and "John Kantakouzenos" as they are relatively (but not to be 100% trusted as source) preserved, from the times of our siege of Thessaloniki and war... unlike exchange between Louis Anjou-Capet and Dushan, which i never seen in some detail and do not know if they exsist in some "French archive" (then not)) and which will be super interesting to know "tone and details", those one survived in some form.... I like not narrative nor quasi dialogue, like tiny details... when they meet Dushan "reminds him" (on something), he "warns him", "advise him" (to do what he wants) etc. tone. "John" then "thanks him", "reminds him", "advises him" etc. As said like that tone details, in way how they (quasi if true source at all) communicate, except "furs on them" and similar line, so it good... very much talk like equals and with some recognition etc. - there was never some "revenges" between 2 like (quasi) after falls of Bulgarian empires etc. so what did Greeks know is interesting, since VII c.

and so on, truly milion details that are super interesting for us to try to reconstruct some more truthful pic on all events and why Italy was key... i like, when you also add it to formula - Este, Conti, Sforzas etc etc. it becomes super interesting. Again, to repeat something from the start now on the very end - if you read such subjects, have some knowledge i have few questions of not so detailed nature but general ones maybe, Italy, France etc. don't make me "monological" )

[Ale]

i mean i tried to avoid this, but will share story as i mentioned it few times including humoristic sketch who remebers with Gattilusio brothers visiting Stefan ...mainly for our dear and eventual Italian readers and why "Brits" also probably knew or suspected many stories but did not want to say expicitely. btw, even Eng-wiki page on Konstantin "the Philosopher", only man who mentioned Elena Gattilusio cleverly has controversy i.e. some lines with double meanings & intentionally uses few Latin words on Serbian events, cleverly ... Konstantin btw - Bulgarian born man, that's controversy not related to topics at all - never moved to "Russian lands" as some said sometimes and died in Serbia on one of "kesar" courts... probably, nobody knows and not so crucial, it is not main story at all... and maybe not by natural death - but by George's agents (joke but listen)

so what is main "story" i.e. "detective game" on this subject of Elena of Genova... the work mentioning her was written after death of Stefan, hence when George was ruling maybe in Belgrade, maybe some other place near Danube but away of him, who moved to some noble in the south.... I'm not looking at you Vinegia (cutie and love) but George was (more less) again "Venetian man", as i talked many times what many things he did for Venice etc. (some Serbs went to Italy by Venetian ships etc)... it all in greater European policy sense fits, Stefan+Sigismund (btw, who also privileged Savoy house in many ways etc) and Genoese wife... then George "golden fork" and his Venetian ties as counter-balance, but Stefan knew that very well as he chosen him as successor... Same George is ordered to "return" Belgrade to Sigismund, for example etc, just to give idea what was going on on many fields...

so - not to lose main thing - "George and Venice get rid" of Elena Gattilusio after Stefan's death, remove her from any writen traces or even pics etc. BUT they forget or do not know that Konstantin is writing biography away from them and mentiones her ... of course "detective story" hypothetical thing and we are playing on beautiful mysteries of the time. George was good man (khmm-khmm) and Venice absolute sister, but in some greater Euro struggles it fits again ....why Brits never talked more in later centuries about our things they knew is not known to me... opium? in any way lovely and cute, think worth sharing as cute, again mainly for my many Italo readers to show how me or your old intellectuals did not fantasize anything...

equally true indeed might be that Konstantin made-it-up and woman was somone else just to hurt tie with Venice etc. etc. (as said there was war in Stefan's time) but first one cuter ; ...as pictoresque detail what is everyone faced with on such subjects and why trust is low, but some "truth" definitevely inthere... but what is certain is that in those 200 years to say - some movement in Italy equals some movement in Rascia to say this way, like chess ) ...again this one is just cute "drama like story" and maybe not at all even close, but has that "suspension" on Elena's fate, avoided to tell before but why not for fun... 100% sure Italian history lovers loved all here

[Ale]

only short, last one as i'm tired of all ) (super stories)) now purely to our history lovers (but might be foreigner) as not so related to anyone else...

problem is with all those theories (nothing about origin and Rome now)) that they in given circumstances and huge interior "interest" fit... this one above, lovely one about Vukashin killing last Nemanide AND (my fav) that Lazar was involved (scary) in some plot against HIM Dushan (greatest man here ever) as possible "cup bearer" and "master of ceremony" of kitchen and wine of emperor... really scary thought for me and may fit as he get (relatively) close to (but Brankovich's maybe more, maybe not) to bloody Louis of Hungry-Anjou-Capet after HIM's death... if you get it. scary and can't aprehend but both that and death of Urosh the weak fit in some way... but also maybe far from truth - scary as Dushan trusted their fathers so much and made them powerful, except few old nobles... treason par excellence but hopefully only epic not hidding own love for Vinegian and Dushan's faction, as by me he represented true "ancient spirit" of tribe and not about conquest at all ;

always best music for such theories )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wia9fWovdW0

[Ale]

to say also, humoristic lines aside - we do not know much psychologically about "Capetians" which ruled longer outside of France than in it, where dynasty already shifted to Valois etc. (but they are all similar as said and basically French)... we don't know if Dushan and Louis "hated eachother", Louis always retreated (with full pants) when Dushan was close, they talked, Pierre talked all talked, called HIM "dishonest" as he did not want to hurt little cute Vinegia etc... so we are not accusing anyone and as i said Capetians were relatives of late Nemanides (which maybe disliked them), i was first to call Philip IV "dear relative" and to not say that he beat anyone ) etc. Complex and deep subjects till today, so we do not know true dimension of their relations, even less if any "Capetian" or "Hungarian king" ever wished death of any Nemanide etc. More super theory for super films and any greed couldn't be just outside driven as said... Hungarians, as their TV says relate themselves more with Atilla than any king but in any way Romans lived here before ; ...always join if you read something and have dialogue between two in papers )

you know which funny line also came to me in last weeks - Dushan was only (at least few in Europe) medieval ruler who 600 years after death did 40 years in jail i.e. kelie specific but great one, besides that lots of good material for lovers of themes and something fresh surely... very deep so do not even pretend to give simple formulas. to say also that Altoman-us was also the best and Baldovin, loyalty considered lovely, what else. we should learn from Anglo-Sexons as we have great material for epics - maybe if we film them in Latin would be more watched

[Ale]

...never said before, of course those who know know already, those who only like subjects but do not know all details and timeline would like - i hinted many times, Serbia was (except Latin empire which was directly ruled anyway) first country that (quasi Anjou) Capetians connected i.e. tied with in whole SE Europe and east anyway... before Hungary and all - problem is that sources and identity of 'Elen was ruined or mystified but girl (thank to French historians as well) might be direct relative of first Anjou-Capet-South Italy-Sicily-Jerusalem etc. So Serbia was first, go figure... in same way, Miluten start of whose rule coincide with "Sicilian Vespers" might be just counter-reaction and he did a lot (contrary to some quasi opinion) to "defend French and Capetian interest" just (and not against) in light of all those events. If you understand and interpret it correctly... so again Miluten was not that he was totally other opposite of belief - hard to say but direct action to defend Capo interest again... and he was before Hungary became "Capetian" and why "disliked" in Vinegia.... super, never said straight before but that is truth. Byzant "softened him" later but till death he was in close tie with Philip, Capetians and souther/eastern quasi Anjous ) lovely if you get it.... however, he publicly condemned behavior of French troops at Siciliy and no Serb was there

think it is important to say, maybe even for whole European history as those events gave tone of century etc... equally important as respecting or valuating (sadly we will never find the truth) theory that our marriage with Anna Dandolina was before fall of Constant and before death of Enrico, changes ideas and narratives... i don't know why, but lovely... we strongest ...as said timeline is often more important than narratives in looks and to repeat to "fight with Boris" it might be that it was not pure "self-defense" but also way to "defend" east "Francia" etc. Obviously both French and Italians contacted us always (even Normans) before others and often directly..... all lovely. history that has some sense but a lot to be puzzled out still ; ...big kiss but not French ) ...i couldn't do it all better and more sensible hope that even quietly you understood some things...

[Ale]

AND, since mentioned that word "Francia" and as we old Latinists ) know the best - it is "important" for us and how development of med and modern Italian changed it, as it is same form as Rascia... think i maybe told before, maybe not - probable is that in initial or original sense it never sounded "Rasha" it sounde, similar to "Francia" maybe Raskia or likely RasCia etc.... is it in any connection with Etruscan endonyms remians mystery forever as well as Ruma and so on. It was Dante that degenerated it smart one, btw

today humor - Venetia is my fav subject and love, would be so romantic as state.... hope they then chose blind leader and - bap! Zara bap! Constantibul just joking, but would be romantic for us... how revolutionary would it be discovery that we were once of same "ilk", one retreated to caves one to lagoons and then we see lion and in trance "we are saved! IV FF reinforces" ...but it was long time ago and realistically how to prove it directly, still lovely as many lovely ideas... make some mods so i needed flag, so humor. Venetian flag commemorating/celebrating its "firm grip over Montenegro" and conquest after huge battles with Turks seriously, flag of Venetian infantry who needs it ;

"pugnans peditatus est domus gens que" - as said always few questions and what are some newer-older versions in your circles etc reading is nice, exchanging some word even better )

[Ale]

"A Barbara.........ooooooooo Barbara oooo" just joking

to say finally, deep subjects and beauty of linguistics but it is slipery field as well so i always tried to use only more-less certianities etc... finally, what is some pedagogical or educational level of those great things if said truthfully, clear from my lines but summary... for example take Italian-Croat-Serb trio, but i will not mention Italians at all now, they know... don't know much about Croats i.e. what they know and intellectual (if not oxymoron)) interpretations, maybe they know as well - i know that in some humoristic show they (successfully and I 100% support such tries) mocked our ekavian speak (and is cute) but generally... they should educate that it is not that, it is actually most Latin speak that is around (maybe whole Europe or in top) but it was even more before you influenced it with yours "influences" ) so it is holy "E" as you like Italics, don't you... from our side we should educate that true (historically) "Latinists" and "Romans" were we and that saying derogatory and bad things about our old Latin is just pure bad ) ...and so on, practical things based on truth that can solve at least that thing forever.... we are not that much into landing on Uranus (as it is our god) but if you insist so much then surely we will take Uranus for greater good ) lovely and we only care about truth on such things, what on earth other gain would we have to tell you that we once spoke "like old Italics" if you get it... again, hope all appreciated and raised your knowledge

[Ale]

to say also this, finally as moment of truth is here and if not clear.... important for XX c history and your/our games as it is direct subject....

i think all is clear, but i rarely maybe speak clearly to all so i feel need to say... why was Serbia choosen by "great powers" as the one to make some greater state... and not only great powers, by Italians and all. Just because, if you get it... Not because it was independent, it was choosen before it was de jure ind. and before Italy was as well (i.e. united)... as said because, if you understand. As everyone knew that Serbs and Italians (who also wanted some lands traditionally) are maybe "bestest pals" once two states create - due to not lingustics, but also due to history, great cooperation, Anna, Rome and million details that was imagined as that that will quasi stabilize and unite Italian and Serb ideas, as they were quasi (it turned out but historically yes) close etc. Italian nationalist liked (as Gabriele example) idea but did not know details (nobody knew all deatils as things were solved "ad hoc" often) and then things went the other way... but not about that at all, mainly to give idea why we were choosen, even with Italian agreement.

it was story of the time i.e. moment, today it is different and we don't have any political agendas, don't be afrais... but it doesn't prevent at all (actually even gives it greater chance) big Anna and at least renewing fully Italian tie, even if we small and stay small (but strong)). Today it is more about love and biology ) ....again, nobody on planet doesn't know how my heart is bleeding for Vinegia and their pain but what to do, trully is not boring repeat but we love them all somehow.... to say, despite my claims of more romantic nature and great historic ties that made us powerful ) - Venetian and Serb ekavian are not of same kind - our is, again, more similar to pure Latin (or was even more) as i said many times (not to be found anywhere in Italy now) than Venetian so beside many words that we accepted from them - those Latinisms do not fitand are older in our than any Venetian influence (which again gave many words), but is cute sister even without.... suspected is, as many Latin words thatremained in our and are often able to be related with military use (not to repeat - meta, prokedite, ku...)) it indeed is due to legions in our area, at least partly etc. AND tone and "tact" is more old Latin than any later Italian dialect.... etc. clear

all nice subjects worth but only touching as i only touched them...

[Ale]

few more details for history lovers, Italian etc... Another "proof" that Miluten was 100% French player whole life i.e. rule is that he denied (as was quasi deal) throne (after own rule) to his brother's son who was married to Venetian woman, Costanza etc. (when they both died is also not 100% certian etc) He called own son "Dechanski" back fast, forgave his "sins" and the way was open for HIM to take throne later...but it "backfired" for French interests as he proved to be "Venetian player" again of course they were all our kings above all and defended interests of own circles but beautiful history when you look at it that way... and, btw, none of them was "anti-Italian" (as Miluten had many Italians at hand) it was as explained, struggle of some Conti-Collona-Este-Sforza faction against some "Vinegian" etc. Really hope if you read this and like subjects in Italy, that you understood whole those events.... I again change "testimony" and touch Dante (btw, his line was crucial for our medievalist to understand how deeply our rulers were involved in inter Italian factions so i repeat it often) not sure what he meant but what is certain is that he used words and figure/something that sounded satirical without making clear "he seen money bad" or "seen evil of Venetian money" etc etc.

to change subject something modern... Etruscan jewelry ...never buy it as interpretation that Rascia sounded as "Racist" in old Latin great subjects - while this is joke there is clear line from antiquity till modern times in tie with Italo-lands and almost like music or drumms beat in repeating melody "divide them from Italian lands, warmer with Italian lands" in cycles ; even popularity of comic-books once fits, then another colder era etc etc... but big Anna will change it forever and stop the cycle, making it site of pilgrimage for people from Genova above all officially not posting anymore, although always something to add, unless you join and hope we gain some life ;

[Ale]

to add also this because it is important for history lovers and "science" writen that way as it is often based more on individual and interpretetations (often even political need or ideology) than some exact formulas and "truth"... depending on subject especially...

Eng-wiki has this nice few lines in article on "Este house", something i talked before about older theories versus newer, vice-versa etc.

According to Edward Gibbon, the family originated from the Roman Attii family, which migrated from Rome to Este to defend Italy against the Ostrogoths. However, there is little evidence to support this hypothesis. The names of the early members of the family indicate that a Frankish origin is much more likely. The Encyclopædia Britannica regards this family as a branch of the Obertenghi.

where is problem with "evidence" part... because in few centuries lots of things can change - so i would not abandon initial British idea... we are also good example on such subject, where there are older theories and often wrong conclusions are made based on some things... almost similar with names of our nobles etc. just becuse they sounded Slavic (which was majority for us cave-men)) or Christian or Greek or "Croat-like" in later period of time, it doesn't negate any thought or truth about previous origin. And for beauty of it we have some rare and beautiful names not even present in any other Slavic country, mix of it even in one family AND always Latin counterpart, which gave very realistic ground to older intellectuals for suscpicion that were not unbased at all... so beautiful name like Altomanus (properly interpret. as "High-handed") surely is not of Slavic origin while family had them as well as christioan-sounding etc. etc...... so to come back to that theory i.e. quasi-negation of its Italic origin, it is sadly based on wrong conclusions... imagine how would on earth in Italy there be family of Italic origin and so on, you get it why we are sometimes right.... problem is that in Italy (and in our kelia)) there was some "negative propaganda" by newcomers and religious people against "Romans" so it's only later that some ideas showed... in our case it is clear that peak rulers (Dusciano) focuse his aim on something "ancient", Macedon, Rome etc. indicating renaissance, and if you ask yourself why it was that and origin theories are quite likely....

so on and on... beautiful. hope you understand and hope i encourage Italians at least a bit on some things that there is beauty in old history, even friendship etc... not so important today in era when rockets are conquering our gods but it should be noted and i gave good example how "names after few centuries" doesn't mean much as quasi evidence ; as tiny example. Absolutely no coincidence that after Italy this small country had by far most emperors and that our rulers in meds knew history very well despite "dark ages without knowledge" floscula etc. But it changes nothing except it is beautiful subject to talk and some nations on A should not take it as something against them, it is just truth... in old Roman, pre-Diocletianus reforms population of today Serbia and some else was not marked as "Illirian" ; ...it is not about modern times, but theories shoud not be rejected, on the contrary... you are also welcome to add thought or two.

beautiful and true. btw, family name is writen as Colonna for details, knew there is double somewhere but placed it wrong

[Ale]

so it is clear - swastikas, Rasa ) and "high-handed" noble - falschisti!!

seriously suspected is that name per se is because of some statues, Roman maybe Augustanus, with salute as seen among Serbs of the time as something noble... similar is story of one fresco called "white angel" widely suspected that it represent ancient (Roman above all but Greek as well) woman/person more than any religious symbol etc. many details.... and why "old Ras" entered Unesco list even before Italian sites and Acropolis in Athens (although maybe techincality as they weren't ready yet etc)

and so on, for experts known details when you connect them all, but to laics not so much soworth sharing as story and why even Italians respected us (before), why we were so connected with Italian families and "untouchable" by popes ever, more Roman than Romans ) and not so present in (quasi) divides and even "behaved like Latins" etc. etc. while stories are lovely and true, in some political sense i'm not so sure - honestly said - that i'm some quasi/fanatical mondialist, globalist and "forget all in the name of one view and culture" person at all... just pure honesty... sharing stories more as sign how great we were and what we really knew and what is true medieval history, than some idea of globalism... however, i'm for local loves with Italians, Vinegia and all lovely stories if you never heard them, aren't they... last thought, really would like to hear from you, mater Latina? (digression, but we use juicy Latin curse/swear till today))

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...so great are misconceptions among "plebs" but also some "knowledgeable" that there are really, really million tiny details and "lies" (maybe not malicious, but just out of pure knowledge) connected to so many practices, heritage or culture etc...

"argument" are some (of course our as they talk about our figures and events) epics more our or "Bulgarian" in form, while in substance they are based on Greeks epics and Gabriele (for example, becuase he was "tortured" in school to learn them)) seen Latin/Roman stories in them of greed, treason, divide etc. That's one example i can remember... other one cultural is so called "kolo" (also masked Latin word) dancing in circles with holding hands - in way are they Slavic ) Serb, third etc... basically (watch video, esp from 3:25 mins around, in lack of films this will do as well) both Greeks and Romans/Italics danced them so that is their true origin in us... and why it is more among Serbs than Croats for example etc. Because it is Roman. Interesting is, to make final conclusion, that many people are in disbelief just because some/many practices are not present in Italy anymore, but all explained... really million as said details, even worthless pointing to every of them, nor i have time nor can remember all of them but are basically for us pure "Roman" (and strangely not only Greek but often directly Italic influence, just not present in Italy anymore or very few). Nothing to be ashamed there you danced like plebs Italians lovely, but unpractical to think about every detail... i don't like subject nor am expert on modern history (told enough) but it is funny how "broken hearthed" Benito just intentionally deformed some practices but also hated places like "Meta Sudans", Rascia toponyms but also some of his followers wanted to ruin our churches etc. And said that we are atavistic ...almost lovely in some way how strongly he opposed something inside connected to us, but they were never extremely brutal to us.... the end. really gave many subjects best i could to make it both truthful, friendly and inviting ....but what about Vinegia?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFVB0Z7CTV0

[Ale]

to say also to our readers - now when we are ended ) - that "white angel" was also target of attack, repainted for centuries until our "chauvinist scietists" ) found it and returned it back to original form... only confirming its importance and hidden message... people always think "Turks" and (for historical truth saying today it is space-opera)) while their armies (or elements) robbed and ruined mindlessly and without any plan - surely would not have time nor knowledge to repaint frescos or intentionally target something related to Dushan, 'Elen etc. So we always say conspiracy and "targeted attacks" which may have been directed from far away or not so far away anyway...but there is not only negative in all those details - all that truth gave us only super material for dramas or mystery art works worthy if not above (pardon our late doctor) Umberto Eco's but satisfaction is that he used "our" (and wider European) themes for work... in our case problem is only size... of country/nation )

so, kind of point, rarely some of our intellectuals or older scientists, "imagined or had fantasies" we were targets of "conspiracy" as well as we were "conspirators" ...sorry Templars, know it hurts - but Philip rarely talked much about details ...generally super and even better this way in some sense as said - we in close ties with not only Italian families, papists etc. but also "central figures of meds", Capetians and things ruined and hidden intentionally etc.... that's from our side, but my message to people in France, Austria etc. involved in "paperwork" - hope at least there was some benefit and you get warmer a bit, i accept that winters can be harsh in those parts really the end (but obviously that always there was need to add something and you are all grateful for new knowledge, od course) with always open invite...

[Ale]

...must say also this, becuase it simlpy is "important" even to modern history and anyone who thinks that "older history is blah blah" but of course it is because it was told you that way, totally mystified or distorted... importance of true (i.e. the one closest to it) history is therefore not only "important" but connected to modern events... and not thinking most modern but relatively modern... We-France-Italy (Venetia) trio that maybe not decided fate of whole continent but at least parts. Opinion is that "we and France" flicked it up twice - in XIV c and in XX c... maybe, maybe but deep knowledge is needed and onjectivness and honesty above all...

so Philip "I'm France" IV Capet is mystified, turned into "high-handed statue" by enemies, into somone killed by boar by others ) etc... Templars as well and their quasi "progressivness" and quasi knowledge about something ancient etc... Truth is only that Templars slept with Philips wife ...seriously people never think deep nor investigate deep - starting from Boniface whom we beat and he looks like some victim etc. But did you ever ask yourself did he really have to touch Kesar's home? Right. one small thing... actually Colonnas also turned into some "hooligans" while actially it was family (we knew well) that supported, researched and knew some ancient things well, surely better than Templars and if not surely then maybe similarly but interpreted in diverse ways... same is with Philip, much much deeper person than is some popular myth and our line which was in touch with him etc. Ancient things... only shortly and for masses, to picture how perceptions were wrong and myths eaten truth... Rascia-France-Italy (some circles) are that "axis" that knew more than others, possibly even Templars - if my posts were not clear by here... etc etc.

how Venetia fits? in no way, they were only about money and interest, no philosophy ....just joking it is not coincidence at all that even "white angel" dates to time when Anna Dandolina was "alpha & omega" and that we were only painting swastikas and "high-handed" guys around, talking some strange Latin ) So Vinegia fits very well in both myth and true history as it was one of the main "holy land players"... Miluten was known as "holy king" for Serbs above all, he was known that way around Europe as possibly first to reach (with some smaller force arguably) Jerusalem after fall of crusader states... why Templars fit, those 3 countries fitand some deeper knowledge not only about ancient history, but about some myths surrounding Christ's "death, grave, etc".... we can't say for sure but what we can say is that myths and mystifications are actually created from some other angles, main idea is to think about Philip, Vinegia, even us differently and what they really argued about.... what is certain is that once Rascia disappeared "humanism" started lovely, just some explains on whole subjects and cut it with Templars mystifications already.... they all took money from us, slept with Capetian wives, and did not want to admit either ...hope you like, many truth between lines, but no more time to tell all.... feel free to share and think about - even i imagined Colonnas as gangsters few years ago ) ...one word - beautiful. about Christ - we seen him as rebel and legal process was fair ) but Boniface something else completely etc. etc. Templars more "going around our hands and stmbling" but there were quite few nice guys there..... ) now you konw it all, hopefully.

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looked at some pages - new detail is that first Colonna pope was elected at Constanze council, the one where (surely but lacks all papers) our representatives also attended. Even more confirming story i.e. guess that "it was close to us".... and whole previous story about Stefan & Sigismund, Venetian moves in north, our moves in Dalamatia - 100% fits, even in 100 years jumps it is obvious what factions our rulers supported in Italy, with changes during those that were less "supportive" like Dushan and more into Vinegia... BUT what assures me that we were so strongly positioned, even HIM, is not any narrative or as I wrongly and comically interpreted as "humor, joke" or "too unrealistic" - the thing that he even dared to ask French pope to give him "capitain" title was not humorit was belief that we are strongly positioned among Italian/French families... same way Miluten line to Clement "mater and older brother" wasn't joke, it was truth based on knowledge that he is their "player" etc etc.... to conclude with paradox - we often wrongly "disliked" and "anathemised" (some) persons i.e. rulers that were in fact "less papal" (close) like Dushan, than those closer lovely and funny, we Serbs are 8th wonder of the world. the end... but i accept and respect different opinions, maybe i'm just to biased with my "angelic" and Dusciano camp ;

btw, I don't know about your countries but mentioning Colonnas - we in practice and everyday life kept both "Italic" words - "kolona" for line or formation and "kolumna" (our original Latinism) for journalistics i.e. paper text, or thing like mine here.... but ended now, hope all liked and reached you properly... very few myths or lies

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to change subject but to stay on it, great are misconceptions really about us... we enjoyed great respect in the west even after death, that it is almost incredible and uncomprehendable to modern person... when you just imagine that maybe (as one text tried to with some shyness say) fashionable people once wore "black rascia" (and some tunic/west "ungarica" just to give them some attention) is small example, but unimportant

in that sense, one map from XVI c made by person from technically today Belgium but then considered "E-Spanish Neverlands" so far from us, by Abraham Ortelius... you'll have to d/load it and look at details as it is tny this way... what is incredible and how "huge respect was there" is that we are placed twice on map - as Rascia and as Servia, although not in correct order as "Rascia" was placed above Danube and Servia below (but it was incredible true as real old ancient Serdia was down under so great guess in a way, but also wrong as Rascia was also related to something down of Danube and Etruscan names etc swastikas etc) but not important and maybe minor thing... why significance - and hopefully nobody takes it as malicious map (write to Ortelius if so) as it has some "unpreciseness" ) so there is no Croatia as nation and Dalamatia is marked as "Slavonia" etc. but lovely how even so far they had some knowledge about us and respect many years after "death". That is point and lovely thing... why was that all - well, as told.

also like that map, as in different colors, it tried to touch subject of some "proto-nations" even if (for example) Turks were still deep inside but almost like authors knew they would not last long there etc. as well as some other empires... point is that it touched then still controversial subject of some "national-groupings"... so it put Bulgaria, both Serbias Hungary etc in same color, for example... see for yourself other groupings... while innovative and daring it is after all again mistake - as both Serbias should have been grouped together with Italy ...there was respect and fame, point one, innovation on map point 2.

we are not atavistic nor living on old fame - we just want romantic days when our kings's pawns beat the popes, changed dynasties in Rome, gave bread to Italy etc. to return seriously, everyone understands why some stories thruthfully told are worth saying on forums full of history lovers ; ...if some thing were not hidden, masked, misinterpreted, if our Markus Aurelius was told honestly, Servian wall even more honestly, Anna touched the sky 200 years ago etc etc. similar things between us and Italians not hidden from plebs - even lives could have been saved (but we and Italians never killed eachothers much if all) and we would unite sooner then we did ) ...so we are telling them now as there are many misconceptions who hated/hates us etc. We were true "sweethearts" (our kings and men, hehe) of the west in this region for many centuries and not "hated ones" ) ...when you connect all those things, ancient, medieval and history all up to XIX or XX you get real story of "knowledge in the west".... why Napoleon reacted that way, i don't know but still think he said it and abdicated crushed from inside i like it all

small noticeable detail, mapmaker if i see correctly doesn't put more famous Belgrade on map but it puts something that was village then and today suburb - Celtic/Roman named Taurunum lovely but why no idea but lovely anyway.... hope you join with some new things from your place, what is fascinating from your history etc

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ancient history is/was often key of some "intellectuals", really not some floscule but truth in at least 90% of cases (including me objectively, haha)... i can't think about every thinker of the past really but really many who had knowledge about it had some "good ideas" or better said deeper knowledge for sure... even till today - knowing Rome is knowing today world in great extent - "globalism", decadence, ideas, massive sport events, many things... ) (sex)) And why I say that Benito (IDK and somehow do not hate him at all) was not good "ancient pupil" while Gabriele was etc. Yeah, people would always say "you are not objective" you like them.subject just becuase they liked you - but not at all, I even try to understand people that "disliked" us like Nabulione ) ....Europe is complex subject and there will always be someone "offended, brokenhearted or disliked" ; ...for us, Italy is that constant and most friendly country ever, like or not... problem is that even if you know that you would "hurt or gain dislike" someone you still try to tell the truth, not reinforce lies or "quasi facts" in name of selfish interest etc. Eeeeeeeeh...

anyway different topic, Abraham (it is just name) family originated from Bavaria and he was not "many generations away" from that time, but away also as he wasn't "Bavarian" in any way, important to say, so it is both ways... E-Spain was country, also to say that also for understanding "liked Rascia" and it sent forces, though i think majority was Venetian, not Spanish etc. Minor really, but why it was "great black rascia on them" etc.

what i always say is those minor details make some great story, not narrative or "great picture" so that intentional (it was not something mistaken it was intent) use of Taurunum as some "famous place" imediately captured my atention why the hell? Right. Talked with some people and there was mystake and mind that (Taurunum was later place of German settlers) in time of Abraham it was not and there was absolutely 0 Germans he to do it for such purposes... but why, of course. He knew...

also like how he "painted France" even though being "German" in some origin, hence from Barbara ...majority is "Gallia" and "France" just small isle in the north ) ...and similar likable details... so totally is wrong that idea of "France bearing Gaulish c**k on chest" as something newer dated, it is something intellectuals considered much, much long ago etc... but who am i to judge - we, Italy and France (and E-spain) are holy....

lovely, for me absolutely lovely and felt need to give some further explains... for some others maybe not so lovely but what to do always say...

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you know why, to say also if you are indeed reading in Italy or France without some deep knowledge & why i asked for your help (i'll sooner land on any of our god than this to happen, but doesn't matter i'm glad even if you only read) why it fascinated me as subject and i insisted much on figures like our two kings... and i don't want to sound like doctor Eco making some puzzles but to explainalso... becuase in basics it holds "some key or element" of whole continental events of the time.... and where it really "snapped" in one moment between Vinegia (for example) and France and why. Was it really because (pardon) "they touched what they shouldn't on Sicily" or was it really renewed Byzantine empire behind uprising etc... Interesting is that in some (maybe not all) Greek tradition Latin empire (we created via Dandolo pawns)) was more called "Frankokratia" (Frankish rule) and not "Italokratia" etc.... and why say interpreting our "holy king" (surely) Miluten is maybe key to that "snap moment" in Franko-Italian relations (i.e. part of Italians) that went so deep that Clement, as told, went so far to allow "Venetians to sell into slavery wherever" ), doubt it is just Ferrara or quasi fake dinars etc. if you understand why i insisted so much.... Since date of death of Constanza Morosini (Vinegian) is doubtful and Clement's "bula" was still in force, why not guessing that Miluten used chance to sell her seriously not that but you understnad why it was key ingredient our role to some extent...

all dates around continent are doubtful but if you get that Anna's son, SU I, was maybe under her influence (as said dates are doubtful, but surely Anna's main mission/goal was to make him king and give him directions even if she died soon after) encouraged to take Capetian wife, there must be some "snapping moment" and why i say that interpretation should be that they (French) suspected Byzantine role so they immediately "activate Miluten" (who knows did his brother fell from horse even) who (but also being half-French and not liking idea that French should be killed in foreign country)) who penetrate with unseen force for Serbs by then all to Aegaen see etc. And Byzantines "capitulate" giving up idea of any further influence... sadly or luckily, depends who like.... again why i insisted and think it was basically history of whole continent, Philip is at about right time - something snaps, Templars (often close to Venetians in struggles in middle east) fall, Venetians are sold and the rest... and it started as story (on our example) to unite most famous Venetian and ruling French family etc.

lovely stories, indeed lovely if you get them right (nobody did till today)... but if you read, diploma is not important, maybe you had some ideas or story, not so much about Miluten but generally where it "snaps" and interpretation of "Vespers" etc... in any way to explain you why it was indeed "important" against or just beside narratives and even daring to say that (again) Philip and Miluten "were key"... the end of explains, but important for lovers... about Serb soldiers on Sicily again and categorically - it is lie!!

[Ale]

you know what is also super cute about Miluten (and his quasi invalid brother Draguten) choosing to penetrate and surround Kavala (as said Greece, Aegean sea coast) in situation when they could choose virtually any place in Greece?

Kavala was once known also as Neapolis (Napoli) and then also Christopolis or similar, but not that.... it is guessed that place was base and gathering point of legions of Brutus and Cassius before battle of Philippi. ....and where IV Macedonica on Kesarian side fought and ruined itself but won ...it fits so lovely also that it is super funny.

BTW, talked enough and expressed what worries me, where i need help etc. but must say that English-wiki page on Miluten is PEARL out of so many pearls that there are... there are so many funny details that it says that he "offered to convert to pope during clash with pro-brother side" and also almost on same place that "he hated catholics and that different pope Jacques quasi started crusade against him" funny becuase we are talking approax. same year and events Lovely and funny pure humor, think that chioce to surround Kavala (and Byzantine emperor Michael died soon after, btw) is only true (as well that he crushed "Mongols" and pushed back Nogai)) btw, feel sorry for "Dechanski" (though not like his lies) as he was first sent to Nogai, then sent to Constantinople quasi "blinded" and then finally got chance to rule 10 years before being "killed" by son lovely.... so you understand many untrue details and why i said some "stupids" before, again pardon to French above all, but also Italians if i said something "stupid" while trying to be scientific always... but Kavala fits so beautifully - again, help always needed from you Romantics

so, btw line as well, be very careful with English Wiki (which is sometimes super) as there is "some war" or confusion there etc.

[Ale]

already talked before - in some self and everyone else confusing way without solving puzzle right, i admit - that for understanding Miluten some findings in Italy (not only Dante's line as most important) are precious... so "medieval novels", hence original and contemporary, in Italy were written about Italians going to Miluten (Rascia of his time etc) to fight, graves were found (even to belonging to very catholic persons) that testify how Miluten had many Italians, knighted them etc etc. Talked but reperat now when picture is clearer ; ....BUT, but, but - of course it doesn't (as we see many times with modern figures) exclude possibility that even same person change his stance, or others change their stance on him, so it is not impossible that Miluten, after taking Belgrade and rest got himself in "trouble" with some circles. Hence, slight change towards Miluten by French and "papist"is possible and why Hungary increasingly become "second option" (and later most important in region making Dusciano angry)) for those circles - as they felt that their "sweetheart":) "Miluten is puruing some sui iuris policy" ) etc etc. you get it... However, there is no proof that ever in history any pope preached openly, made any "bula", that would include any "crusade" against in concrete Serbia i.e. Rascia as known then.... as said, reasons were strong connections and Miluten's (and others) finance of French and Papal armies etc.

ALSO, important me not to be one adding further confusion on topic where "Vespers" are central but also subject of Michael VIII PalEEologos (as we ekavians say)) to say that i noticed this: (Wiki on topic)

Years later, in his autobiography, the Byzantine emperor Michael VIII wrote: "Should I dare to claim that I was God's instrument to bring freedom to the Sicilians, then I should only be stating the truth."

and why i say that either (as also some Italian historians tried to say on Anna and Enrico and us theme) our continental dates are often wrong or there is indeed conspiracy on theme surrounding it and everything related to "Capets, Templars and main dude Miluten" and whole time in fact.... sowhy am i laughing so hard - as officially Michael died same year as Vespers i.e. after being cornered by Miluten ) ...but there is suspicion that he lived longer as i said maybe till again Miluten cornered him at Kavala etc. But funny in this sense "years later" to write own autobiography ) - but who knows maybe Greeks are real source of legends about vampires so something "stinks" on whole time, but i guess again that exactly Miluten actions confirmed that French suspected Byzant ....soubjects are always quasi "touchy" and controversial without any need really - we are talking far history don't we ;

to say also before we say goodbuyes ) - while it is clear (to everyone let's be honest) why would countries like Austria, Turkey, maybe even Russia (but i can't say that) would have interest to change or modify Serbian history, maybe also neighbours like Albanians or Hungary, Croats etc. (all huge sisters)) BUT why France burnt some details and changed it (slightier than some) did not come to me completely... so i always say that some of details were ruined maybe unintentionally during "revolutionary events" and Napoleon himself, but can't speculate.... or it is sense that we both "flicked it up" so lets hide that a bit ...France, Italy (and E-Spain proudly bearing it)) are our sisters lovely and likable, i only added to demistifying subject hopefully... but can't go on forever and there are really many details i could point to - feel free to share.... general conclusion is - yes! we knew about ancient history )