MAPS: Request map makers for help

[sympatyk]

As an off-topic question, I have been planning to leverage your Melitopol map for one of the LSSAH scenarios, but since it is larger than PG2 standard size, I cannot convert it as it as. Is there a simple way to crop a large map? Cropping the background picture is of course a simple task, but is there a simple way to "crop" MAPX?

After converting the map into tiles - you have the option to trim the map.
You then need to load a drawing that fits the trimmed tile map and save.
Everything in the Suite

[randowe]

Hi Clemens

Thanks a lot for your hard work - the map is amazing. I also noticed that it had been already uploaded to the database, #1528. Do you or somebody also plan to upload the MAP file or should I generate the one myself (and submit it)?

As an off-topic question, I have been planning to leverage your Melitopol map for one of the LSSAH scenarios, but since it is larger than PG2 standard size, I cannot convert it as it as. Is there a simple way to crop a large map? Cropping the background picture is of course a simple task, but is there a simple way to "crop" MAPX?

Regards, Alex

Hello Alex

Please create the MAP file yourself. When i save as MAP file, the SHALLOW SEA is still in the file and i don't know about the other terrain labels that are not featured in PG2. And railroads?
You know, i never played PG2. You then can send the MAP file to Luis if you want to get it uploaded at mapfinder.

As sympatyk said, you have to convert the mapx file to a tiled map first. Then use the "Tiled map options" to "Enlarge / Reduce map size"
Then load the MAP file and load the cropped map picture. The whole process can be a bit tricky though.
Here is a screenshot:

[salexpg2]

Hi

Ok, I generated the MAP file. As far as I can see, there is no way to attach a file here, so I will send it directly to Luis.
While converting MAPX file to MAP format, I noticed one logical discrepancy. It seems that the conversion process just takes terrain code as it as without checking whether it is supported in the MAP format. So, all shallow water hexes with code 18 ended with the same code in the final MAP format. Funny enough is that OpenSuite still can open such a MAP file because it is aware of what terrain code 18 is, but I doubt that it will work in e.g. PG2. I will check with Luis whether it is intended behavior or not.

And thanks a lot for instructions on how to crop MAPX, I will try it!

Regards, Alex

[Wonderdoctor]

Hi

Ok, I generated the MAP file. As far as I can see, there is no way to attach a file here, so I will send it directly to Luis.
While converting MAPX file to MAP format, I noticed one logical discrepancy. It seems that the conversion process just takes terrain code as it as without checking whether it is supported in the MAP format. So, all shallow water hexes with code 18 ended with the same code in the final MAP format. Funny enough is that OpenSuite still can open such a MAP file because it is aware of what terrain code 18 is, but I doubt that it will work in e.g. PG2. I will check with Luis whether it is intended behavior or not.

And thanks a lot for instructions on how to crop MAPX, I will try it!

Regards, Alex

Hi Alex, Please follow these instructions viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5 when creating a new map - that is, unless you don't want to share your work to the community. Thanks - Jurgen

[salexpg2]

Hi

I contacted Luis and sent him MAP and TXT files for #1528, Kherson. They are in database now.
He also confirmed that the latest version of OpenSuite automatically converts "shallow sea" into "ocean", so this issue is fixed as well.
Thanks to randowe for hard work on Kherson!

P.S.: I plan to create a new Kherson scenario for the LSSAH campaign, so if there are volunteers to test it with a new map, you will be more than welcome!

[salexpg2]

Hi Randowe

I know that I had to check Kherson map earlier and provide detailed comments, but it was only recently when I took a closer look at where some cities and villages are. So, here are some suggestions, which I hope we can still accommodate because they are not big:

1. How did you end up with bridges across Ingulets river at hexes <37,2>, <35,9>, <34,13>? I did find any confirmation they were there. There was something apparently around Sadove, at <36,20>, because that is a sector which LSSAH was defending after taking Kherson; and that sector was also defended by Soviet divisions. If we keep those bridges, then maybe they should/can be shown as "small" bridges, similar to what you have at hex <35,9>

2. Can you add a picture of village Fedorivka at hex <32,14>, right in front of Yasnaya Polyana? The reason I am asking is because this village is mentioned quite often in historical records, so it would be easier for people to sync historical records with exact location on the map.

3. The location of Barativka village is a bit strange, it should be somewhere around hex <34,5>. And there should be a village Yelizavetovka, right across the river, around hex <36,5>, which was apparently connected with Barativka. The reason why it would be nice to add Yelizavetovka is because it is also mentioned in historical records, but not Baratovka.

Let me know what you think about these changes.

Regards, Alex

[salexpg2]

Hi again

Referring to my comment 3, a quick and dirty solution would be to remove village at <39,0>, but add a new village Yelizavetovka around hex <37,2> or <38,2>.

Regards, Alex

[randowe]

Hello Alex

You are right, there were no bridges across Ingulets river, only fords or ferrys or the locals did use their own boats to cross the river. The bridges in the map picture are only there to help the AI.
Unlike in PG2 there are OG efiles (like mine) where most units can't cross rivers on their own. So the AI would have a very big disadvantage. And thus it is better to just add some bridges only to help the AI. Yes, it is possible to add some bridging units to the AI's army or give them bridging attachments, but that is another story...
So unless there should be a map without any bridges like Beryslav - Kakhovka, it is better to add more bridges than neccessary, just to help the AI in a variety of scenarios that are possible on a map.

The Ingulets river is also meander a lot. Of course it is possible to recreate the exact river in a map picture, but it would take thrice the time. While the location of the river is correct, it is not an 100% copy. So, while the meander are not 100% correct in the map picture, some villages can't be in their original position simply because there is now a river in the map picture. I then choose villages that fits the best.

I also don't know in most cases which villages were important back in the days. I made more than 120 maps in 3 years and i don't have the time to check the history of all villages. Then the overall time i need would become endless. Still i think my maps are along the most accurate maps out there. Especially when you compare them to the very old maps. I always try my best because most of the maps i want to use myself and they should be as good as i am able to make them.

I am sorry, but the map is already uploaded at mapfinder and can't be changed. If you need minor changes you can create a new version of the map and submit it as a new map.
I waited like 6 days after i finished the map and before i send it to Luis, but there was no comment and i thought it is okay then and moved on to the next maps and stuff.

Finaly i was able to download more situation maps and just because i mentioned it earlier i post the map of 12th september 1941 where some german units advanced towards Perekop and got repelled:



kind regards

clemens

[salexpg2]

Hi Randowe

Ok, I see the point with bridges. However, I thought that it is not a big issue as you can always help AI with adding bridge engineers in a particular scenario.

What about other changes, e.g. adding two villages that I mentioned in my previous post? I understand that the map has been already submitted, but that time I did not have an access to my tools with which I would be able to check exact cities/villages (and that was the reason why I was asking whether it is possible to render names on the map). I doubt that somebody has already created a scenario with this new map, so minor changes should be still Ok. If not, then no hard feelings, thanks for the great map!

Regards, Alex

[randowe]

@ Luis, is it possible to edit the map picture and mapx file and add villages to the Kherson map although it has been already uploaded to mapfinder?

The location of Barativka village is a bit strange

Barativka had houses in 3 different Hex and i had to choose one to place it one the map. One Hex is river and i chose the northern Hex, because in the map it appeared that there were slightly more houses in that hex

Anyway, which (was it one or two?) villages do you want to get add to the map (if possible)?
I don't want to remove anything, let's just add the villages.

[salexpg2]

Hi Clemens

Here are the suggested changes in the order of increased complexity, feel free to decide where you want to stop:

1. Add small villages Fedorovka somewhere around hex <33,15> and Yelizavetovka somewhere around hex <38,2>;
2. Village Novokondakove at hex <39,0> is actually a bit farther, but we can keep it if we you prefer not to erase it;
3. I would move Barativka from <35,3> to <36,3> because it is right on the river bank;
4. Since our bridges over Ingulets are "fake" ones, maybe we should same graphic as what you have at <35,9>, but no strong view;

P.S.: Thanks a lot for the link to the German maps, I am downloading now maps that I need.

[salexpg2]

Hi again

5. Vilage Yasnaya Polyana should be ideally somewhere around <35,12> according to geographical maps, but might also require changes in the roads you have. Actually, the location of this village matches more "Ingulets" village, so maybe we can just rename it

Since I am guilty for triggering all these changes, I am ready to volunteer to update the MAPX file once the background picture is ready.

[randowe]

I think i hit a psychological barrier here i can not execute such "creative surgery" ony my "baby" Adding two villages is one thing, but what you demand, i can not do, sorry. I mean, once i submit a map i want to move on and everybody is free to use, edit and modify it. Please please do it yourself.

What about all the other maps you use in that campaign? Are they 100% perfect...

[salexpg2]

Hi Clemens

I am actually not demanding anything, that is why I wrote the list and suggested that you can stop at whatever level you want. If it is level 1, then I will be more than happy with that

No map is perfect, but there is an endless process of striving for perfection. This is actually something that current philosophy of OG lacks - once you create a map and generate a scenario, you become a captive of that map because there is no clean way of coming to back and making minor changes to the map if needed. Ironically enough, PG2 had a more flexible design in a sense that MAP and SCN files were strictly decoupled and you can still modify MAP file without changing SCN. I guess it will take time to realize it

Regards, Alex

[sympatyk]

I do not agree with you

I always like reading about maps ....
Don't be surprised Randowe doesn't want to change the drawing
Because here - it's just about drawing -> other things -> mapx (map), scenario - you can change freely
A drawing can have many mapx files, and many different scenarios
If you want to do the opposite - adjust the drawing to the scenario -> use the tile map
Each change of the mapx (scenario) file -> will change the generated map image -> therefore OG has an advantage over PG2

[mythos]

Hi Alex

Suite and OG both have the Option to draw (actually "overlay" ) tiles onto an existing jpg. Currently supported are:
- Airfield
- Fort
- Port
- Railstation

Maybe Luis would agree to add City to the list - tiles for this do exist already from Tiled Maps.

[salexpg2]

Hi all

If I understand right, whenever we create a new scenario in XSCN format, it actually "caches" MAPX data. So, if somebody changes MAPX file later, e.g. a small fix or a correction, it will not propagate into the XSCN file. It is maybe not a big deal, but I have seen tons of small issues with map data, such as wrong terrain, misplaced roads, etc. And it is normal as it nothing is perfect. So, applying those fixes to MAP files in PG2 will automatically enable them to all SCN scenarios, whereas in XSCN, if I understand right, you would need to do it manually. I am of course not advocating for redesigning the game if it works for everybody

And coming back to the original issue. I just expressed my feedback on how the Kherson map can be improved with a clear understanding that a designer has a right to ignore it.

Regards, Alex

[LuisGuzman]

Hi Alex

Suite and OG both have the Option to draw (actually "overlay" ) tiles onto an existing jpg. Currently supported are:
- Airfield
- Fort
- Port
- Railstation

Maybe Luis would agree to add City to the list - tiles for this do exist already from Tiled Maps.

Yes, I've ponder many times to add the possibility of "painted" cities similar to Airfield, Fort, Port or Rail-Stations, but surely it won't fix Alex's issue.
Anyway I refrained because the current terrain "painted" over the image are not using the Tiles components but icons from hex_marks.png (or even from deprecated hex_grids.png) which we are avoiding to change since long ago because they are hard to keep updated in every player local drive.
Moving to use for all of them the tiles from the hex_tiledecors*.png (depending the scenario latitud) would be possible, except for ports and rail-stations, and I really dislike such mixing solution.

IMHO, Alex doesn't want to use the map for any OG scenario but rather to use with Panzer Marshall.
Btw: which formats does PzMarshall use for images and map definition cells ?
I mean, does it use standar PG2 formats (.shp and .map) or something different

@ Luis, is it possible to edit the map picture and mapx file and add villages to the Kherson map although it has been already uploaded to mapfinder?

It is not impossible to replace one or more file/s related with any existing record in the database (txt, shp, jpg, png, mapx ..), but we cannot know when a map already published at Mapfinder is already used by anyone, so I am strongly against changing it, except if it is done almost immediately to fix a bug.

@Alex: if you want the map only to use with Panzer Marshall, I'd better suggest to tweak the image and the mapx and convert again to PzMarshall format

[salexpg2]

Hi Luis

Thanks for responding!

I assumed that since the map has been released just recently, we still have a chance for applying minor fixes. If it is not acceptable, then fine, I will comply with your working procedures.
By the way, is it normal/common to update map/mapx files in your database if there is a mistake? As I wrote earlier, I saw plenty of them but was not sure whom I should contact on that matter.

Regards, Alex

[randowe]

By the way, is it normal/common to update map/mapx files in your database if there is a mistake? As I wrote earlier, I saw plenty of them but was not sure whom I should contact on that matter.

There are many mapx files which contain mistakes. I made some mistakes too. Some are quite common like broken roads. But they never get replaced with a updated version, because at the end it matters not that much, because mistakes can be reworked on scenario level when the map-file is used to create a OG scenario. Sometimes the map designer may has used broken roads as an element of design.

I see it like this: A mapx file can be the base of a new scenario but that does not mean that the map-file is an 100% perfect solution. Even as a map designer it can be hard to find the correct terrain sometimes. For example when half of the hex is ocean and half of the hex is land. One person may label it ocean terrain while the next person would label it differently. Sometimes there is not just one right solution.
As a scenario designer i can work around that and did so many times, because you need the map-file only once, when you create the scenario for the first time, then all the data is stored in the scenario file anyway and the map-file is not used anymore for the scenario. Sometimes i change a lot of the terrain. I guess that is simply part of the process. I would not blame a single map designer for a mistake or 100 mistakes, because i know very well myself how hard it can be to create a map. No wizards here

[salexpg2]

Hi Clemens

The way I see it is that there are two major non-mutually exclusive approaches:

1. You take a map file as a starting point, on top which you make some local changes or corrections. In this case you do not want your changes overridden with later changes to the map file, if any.
2. You take a map file as it is, no local changes. In this case it is beneficial to automatically import later changes to the map file, if any, assuming that we accept only most obvious fixes to the baseline map.

What I wanted to say is that current OG design supports only option 1 because XSCN files caches map data. There is no way you can write a scenario hoping or assuming that map fixes, if any, will be automatically inherited. And funny enough, with PG2 you can do either option 1 or 2, it apparently gives you more flexibility as a scenario designer. I am of course not advocating for switching to PG2, but just pointing out some of the features that OG still misses. In fact, even if OG consciously restricts the scenario design only to option 1, then what would be wrong in allowing obvious fixes to map files that we have in our database?

Well, somehow this discussion went too far into general design principles rather than map design I just wanted to confirm that I will have to use Kherson map the way it is now and no further changes are allowed and, thus, coming.

Regards, Alex

[randowe]

Hello Alex

I just wanted to confirm that I will have to use Kherson map the way it is now and no further changes are allowed and, thus, coming.

But further changes are allowed! There as many changes allowed as one wants to make!
Anybody is allowed to download, use, edit and modify my maps, but people have to ask somebody or do it themselves. Then ask for a new map number and create a "new" map out of the existing one.
Please understand that, in this particular case, i am unwilling to do it, once i think a map is "perfect" and finished and uploaded at mapfinder.

(When the map was finished i waited 6 days and, as i said, i got no comments and moved on. I mean, sometimes one never gets an answer in internet forums, so i decided that 6 days was enough We also don't know how the creation of a scenario works in Panzer Marshal and so we can only use our OG tools, which work fine for us, i'd say. At least i was never thinking about these "problems" because i can change everything from the mapx-file when i create a OG scenario.)

But yeah, you are right, it is time to end this discussion Have a nice weekend everyone

kind regards

Clemens

[salexpg2]

Hi Clemens

Thanks for confirming.
By the way, it was never about PanzerMarshal, not sure where this confusion comes from. I just wanted to improve the map a bit without any assumption which game/tool will be using it.

Regards, Alex

[Major Heinz]

Even that Clemens and Sympatyk seems to be the only person who create maps, I will update my map request. Some missing maps for my planed campaign I can replace through other maps, because they are fictional.

But one map is still needed: A winter map of Siauliai

And a map of the Vosges (in that the last pocket of the french troops from the Maginot Line was 1940) would also be cool.

And even I do not need it anymore, but I think I could be a necessary map anyway: A winter map of the western side of Stalingrad with more city hexes for urban wafare and more of the landscape west of Stalingrad.

[sympatyk]

But one map is still needed: A winter map of Siauliai

Specify in the drawing - google map - map scope (send drawing)
write a scale - 1.5km / hex ?, 2km / hex?
write what map - 2K, 3K, 5K?
write map time / period
write important places for you
define the types of terrain on the drawing (draw contours)

This is necessary to understand well - my English only through translator
When will I do - I don't know ...

[Major Heinz]

Sympatyk

I have little idea what a 3kMap would look like with, for example, 2km per hex. But I can briefly say what it's about: It's about the planned pincer attack by the Germans after a win in the Ardennes from East Prussia and the Kurland Kessel towards the Baltic States at the end of 44 / beginning of 45. Both directions should meet near of Siauliai.
-As it is a fictional scenario, other locations on the map are secondary.
- Siauliai should be in the middle of the map.
- I would prefer a larger map with a large area, for example in which the Latvian border in the north is still on it and in the south, for example, the city of Raseiniai. But I don't know how big the map would have to be for that.
- I like the typical maps like von Randowe, but one with your typical drawing style would be okay too. But I'm not that perfectionist when it comes to maps in my campaigns anyway.
The map is currently not urgently needed. At the moment I still have work to do on the RSF Efile before I can start biulding the campaign and the scenario is one of the last.
I also used a translator in the hopes that my bad English would be better understood.

[sympatyk]

3k map, size 70x60 hex = 3150x3000px, at 2km / hex -> 140km x 133.3km
This is what google looks like

http://www.opengeneral.pl/sympatyk/Szawle.jpg

The names can be confusing in different languages...
pl. Szawle, lit. Šiauliai, żmudz. Šiaulē

[Major Heinz]

Yeah, that looks great!

[sympatyk]

Map (base) with marked hexes

http://www.opengeneral.pl/sympatyk/S56_Schaulen.jpg

An awful lot of water ... rivers, small rivers, streams, wet meadows, swamps
In one hex and a river and a road and a railway ...

[Major Heinz]

I would say to make the scenario more playable (even in the RSF tanks can cross frozen rivers) you can delete some of the small rivers or not draw them

[sympatyk]

Where were the airports?
Where to put airports in the drawing?

[Major Heinz]

I think that an airfield was near of Schaulen, but I don`t know the exact position. Near of Telsche another airport was. I am not sure if it was used in WW2.




I made three points on the picture where I could imagine an airfield. However, I don't know exactly whether it will work from the terrain, because I also don't know whether and which of the small rivers you will not be drawing. But airfields near the markings would be good.

[randowe]

For the location of airfields you can check this document:

https://www.ww2.dk/Airfields%20-%20Balt ... huania.pdf

According to the document:

Telsche/Telsze had 3 little airstrips, one was used by Luftwaffe in 1944.
Schaulen/Szawle had one airfield and was a major logistical center for Luftwaffe.
Poniewież had one airfield and one airstrip. The airfield was used by both Soviets and Luftwaffe.
Kielmy had a little airstrip, but not used by germans.
Janiszki had a little airstrip, but not used by germans.
Bauska had 5 little airfields or airstrips but only one was used by very few german units.

Thats what i have checked. You may find more.

[sympatyk]

Thank you very much for indicating the airports

@ Randowe
Your link to the description of airports is very good ... only reading / recognizing names on the map (are they in the marked area) - I have a hard time ...

I chose airports that are listed but were not necessarily active -> I look at the map from the gameplay side ...
Can it be so?
http://www.opengeneral.pl/sympatyk/1_Schaulen.jpg

[sympatyk]

This is what a complete drawing looks like ...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10_fwg7 ... sp=sharing

[Major Heinz]

The map looks good and because in the south is an airport an airport in the north is not needed because the player can use the soputhern airfield where also germans start.

But I have one problem with the map. I need a winter map. I thought that was clear, because I wrote it before

[sympatyk]

Ooo ... but zonk
Seriously - do you need a winter map?
One with snow and frost?
Okay - as part of good cooperation, you already have a new drawing ...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1U9xzf7 ... sp=sharing

[Major Heinz]

Yes, I need a winter map, since the scenario will play in late decembre / early january. I think there will be a lot of snow in lithuania.

The map looks fine now

[sympatyk]

You can have more - the picture - marked with a layer of snow (terrain - snow)
What you choose?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sUvyXE ... sp=sharing

[Major Heinz]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean, so what to decide.
Is the last picture not the picture what you attached the post before? I see no difference between the two maps.

[sympatyk]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean, so what to decide.
Is the last picture not the picture what you attached the post before? I see no difference between the two maps.

Yet
The entire white area on the map has a faint outline / contour of snow cover
You can see it near cities, forests, rivers ...
Superimpose pictures on yourself and quickly switch from one to the other ..

[Major Heinz]

Ah okay, when opening the picture in full size I see the difference. I like more the syle of the first pictures, that you posted on saturday evening.

[salexpg2]

Hi all

Referring back to the discussion we had with Randowe some time ago, is there anybody working on a scenario for a new map Kakhovka (Southern Ukraine)? I have been thinking of including a new scenario with that map into the LSSAH campaign, so I am wondering whether I can leverage existing scenario as a starting point (because I will anyway need to have more or less detailed modelling of German and Soviet divisions in that area).
Feel free to direct me to the corresponding discussion thread.

Regards, Alex

[sympatyk]

Summer and winter maps are ready (Šiauliai 1537 and 1538)
I changed some hesy with roads ..
The biggest problem was with the names
I copied / wrote them from maps from 1942 and 1939 - they can be wrong
History has left its mark here
Names of places, rivers .. were in Lithuanian, Polish, Latvian, German, Russian ..
Without original letters - strange names arise ....

[Major Heinz]

Thank you very much for creating the map

[Alberich]

Randowe and Sympatyk, two great mapmakers.

[randowe]

Randowe and Sympatyk, two great mapmakers.

Thanks for your kind words. If you like playing on my maps i am happy I think every map maker would be happy to hear this

[salexpg2]

Hi all

@randowe: Some time ago we were discussing the Taganrog map. Having thought more about it, and as a forward looking thing, it would be nice to produce both summer and winter versions. After retreating from Rostov in November 1941, German forces built a defense line near Taganrog, so-called "Mius front". So, the Taganrog map can be used to model a number of battles. Another big battle took place there in the summer 1943. While designing the map, I suggest paying a special attention to the Mius river and other smaller rivers around it as it was a crucial part of the German defense line.

Regards, Alex

[randowe]

Hi all

@randowe: Some time ago we were discussing the Taganrog map. Having thought more about it, and as a forward looking thing, it would be nice to produce both summer and winter versions. After retreating from Rostov in November 1941, German forces built a defense line near Taganrog, so-called "Mius front". So, the Taganrog map can be used to model a number of battles. Another big battle took place there in the summer 1943. While designing the map, I suggest paying a special attention to the Mius river and other smaller rivers around it as it was a crucial part of the German defense line.

Regards, Alex

I know the "Mius front" or "Mius-Stellung (how it's often called in german)" was very important but at the moment i have no time to create such a map.
I've pretty much finished my ATOMIC Blitzkrieg campaign (only the last scenario is missing) and in the winter months i want to get back to map making again. I already started to work on 3 maps and i hope to finish 5 maps by the end of this year:

- Savannah (mod of map 13; 3150x3000 pixel)
- Berdyansk (2400x2400 pixel)(3150x3000 pixel)
- Taganrog (2400x2400 pixel) (Taganrog in the east of the map, Sambek at the map edge)
- Crimea east/Kerch peninsula (mod of map 544; 3150x3000 pixel) (could even make another XXL map together with Kuban peninsula..I'll see...)
- Baku (mod of map 423; 3150x3000 pixel)

Next year i want to make a campaign about the 13. Panzer-Division and, you know it, it was positioned in the Mius-Stellung as well. But i don't know the exact campaign path yet as other important maps are missing as well (Dnipropetrovsk).
Maybe i'll just have a scenario about the large Soviet counterattack that drove the germans back to the Mius after they captured Rostov for the first time. I've made two large Rostov maps and i want to use both of them. Maybe it will be "Capture Rostov 1941", "Soviet Counterattack", "Capture Rostov 1942"
Anyway, for the next year i have a long list of maps i want to design and i can't tell if i can make this or that for sure, sorry.

[salexpg2]

Hi Randowe

Thanks a lot for the response. So, referring to the Taganrog map that you plan to make, I was thinking of the win-win situation to effectively cover the area of the "Mius front / Mius-Stellung". Since it starts right east from Taganrog, it should be enough if you include Sambek river into the Taganrog map. Once you get to the Taganrog map, I can do my homework and check where exactly the fortification line was.

Regards, Alex