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since we laughed about it previously - both armies were drunk, Ottomans saw it double etc. as i put it - here is link from Turkish sources about that totally phantom battle from 1364, about which no other participant have a word about in sources...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of ... 4%9F%C4%B1

story is nice and article big, bigger than one about historical Maritsa battle from 1371 where "cream of southern ex-empire" died, led by Vukašin and was "Serb destruction" indeed (very nice Turks changed the name of village now)... Most likely confusion in their sources and this battle never happened, especially as Serbs and Vukašain would hardly cooperate with Louis, one of the main opponents of Dušan, Vukašin was in "good relations" with his emperor son and respected Dušan image.

But - though there is around 1% that this ever happened - i give link from Turkish sources, out of respect. Maybe whole story and confusion with two identical battles in their sources was also out of respect to show how huge and "manpowerful" opponent Serbs were until 1389-90. .... nonetheless, after at least two bloody battles Serbs and Osman-Turks cooperated well in Ankara 1402, there was also toponym near Ankara or Anatolia "Serb heroes" (but it has been changed too some time in history, reportedly) Well that battle and events are something to make good Turk-Serb cooperation medieval action film once, surely

now, this proved to be more interesting subject than i thought investigating various sources tonight and even trying to contact some scholars from Bulgaria, Greece (because of localities) other parts of Europe etc. not sure it'll change anything known.... any help from Turkey would be appreciated in any time. Only thing I managed to confirm is that Turkish general Omer Halis Biyiktay in 1934 was the one who published and found that some place near Ankara was known once as "Sirp/Serb heroes" due to "black knights" role.

but i'm more interested and "shocked" by fact that some serious historians (like at least one American, mister is dead now so not important) published serious work where he talked about 1364 battle but did not mention real one from 1371. And also wrote about 100000 Serbs (and other contigents) against 50-60000 Osman-Turks (and contigents) on Kosovo 1389, never heard about any published work with such interpretations until yesterday/today... always doubted in historians and their diplomas, but this is a bit too unhistorical ... for example, Vukašin for one wasn't even man with high title in 1364, title he recieved in 1365 and died in 1371 in only "Serb destruction", not to mention numbers Barbarossa, England and France could not land in any time

anyway - historians and their books aside, there are many of them and different views - this is of real moderate interest to me, take it as invitation for help. while interpretation is false - Turks in XIV century wrote it out of confusion and respect for "strong" enemy but simply not true - however I'd appreciate any Turkish help about Sirp Sindigi or Sirpsindigi village near Adrianople/Edirne and was it near today town.... but also for all events from 1371 to 1402. It's not like i'm expecting answer, but why not trying it here ; our friendship is legendary and there will be a lot of future Turko-Serb (combining action and great love stories) films about it all, beating any other production

some "developments".... investigation and looking through exchanged massages and behavior of all "players" mentioned by Turkish sources will take months, maybe years, don't have time for decades and centuries

picture is of today village Sarayakpinar ex Sirpsindigi aka "Serb destruction"... slightly more than 10 km roughly north of Edirne/Adrianople. AND not on river Maritsa aka Evros. Very unlikely place for a camp - and especially not "relaxed" one, without necessary security measures with drinking and song as described in sources - due to its geography, lack of natural barriers and in close range of larger enemy populated settlement. Doesn't take much to conclude that, plus it seems like different direction from place Serb army would come from i.e. modern North Macedonia, following western bank of Maritsa...

Ormenio - suspected and most likely place of "Serb destruction" in 1371 - is on right route (there is even international road today close by) and west of Maritsa, making it suitable place for overnight camp in theory that Serb "ratio" was like "lets sleep and feast here this evening and cross the river tomorrow, direction Edirne/Adrianople". Plus closer to water supply and eventual bath etc, since it was still relatively warm part of the year, late september by sources BUT first half of month due to Julian calendar used. It fits as place for ambush and being so near to river (and swampy areas) it also fits as location where "half-drunk half-sleepy" knights (of heavy cavalry Serb type) would end up in river/swamps in panic... if that story is right at all and Turks did not recieve reinforcements they demanded from sultan Murat and then surprised unexpecting Serbs... that's something for eventual later research.

HOWEVER - one part and great suspicion that seems to support Turkish-Osmanic story at least in a bit of it is that their and some Greek-Byzantine sources do mention how Serb armies (or at least part of them) did cross the river before battle and "destruction"... plus, east of ex "Sirpsindigi" (village on pic) there is/was village with part of "Lala-pasha" in its name, he was alleged commander of Turk forces that clashed with Serbs... maybe indeed place where that Lala Pasha camped or massed his troops before attack on some now separated Serb units trying to outflank Edirne, unaware of their presence... also, according to line "Serbs tried to get back to road they came from" it would make sense to return west and run into Maritsa river. But somehow modern village is too far from river to make Serbs "panicking for 15-20 km" before reaching it

early/preliminary conclusions for all interested (still mu invite is actual) and there is something to support both localities as possible, but Ormenio more likely, unless Serbs indeed haven't separated in charging attack in early morning hours (btw, sources from earlier Dušan times showed that "Turks" knew how to deal with Serb heavy cavalry charges, unlike Timur's Mongols later). Turkish village looks like solid place for cavalry charge in that sense... As said it will take long time to collect more data, but year 1364 and Hungarian participation is very strange (and maybe totally fictional) but some things in location make sense, slightly in Turkish story... not sure about forum but hopefully appreciated if longish. do not know many Turks and those for small towns/villages do not speak English working on it and story is worth looking at... as joke must say some Byzantine and Turkish-Ottoman sources made us "cool" in some istances in those final days, so i theorise that dispite bloody events and fear of "Serb identity/state" through later centuries, there was some respect on their side and Turkish toponyms did not hide that ;

unrelated to "main story" i.e. Marica, Evros, Sirpsindigi events i'd like to know more about.... two things, maybe important to know

apropos questions were toponym change (both "Sirpsindigi" and "Sirp gazi i.e. heroes") part of some Ataturk (Kemal one) policies of "Turkification" answer is no, both toponyms have no relation with that. Reportedly (can't confirm anything lets believe Turk sources) "Sirpsindigi" was changed after ww2 and well after Ataturk death and "Sirp heroes" at unknown time well predating Ataturk himself (maybe during Serb uprisings in XIX century, maybe even earlier) so no relation to him and his times ;

other theory and pure guess that "Serb heroes" might be place north east of Ankara now called "Kahraman-kazan" i.e. roughly translated as "Heroes cauldron" (battle cauldron as Serb cavalry produced most energetic fight in whole battle).... but just theory and not based on any evidence nor source, Turks can't confirm. There are other places around the today town which may be places of "Serb heroes" locality maybe even further of that place as they separated few times... doubt there will be certain location and not in current political climate (Turks will not put old name back)) if important at all where exactly but it was near Ankara (general Biyiktay work and notes should be researched in detail for interest)

nothing new on "main story" and will share any conclusion, maybe in far future if I get something...

....and .... since I already "turned east" - why not it is interesting part of our story, but although I like Turkish (even rural) miladies I'm not the one uncritical about Mehmed II for example let's add more material to the subject, while waiting to solve "1364 battle" events (maybe never). Since mentioning it all, another thing (if Turkish source is correct) that Adrianople/Edirne was declared "capital" in 1365, it makes possible that something "important" did happen around that time or 1364, or just Ottoman myth was made of some "defense" of the city against "Serbs" to signify decision to make it capital... can't say (again) anything for sure, what is certain from our side is that Vukašin was "not titled enough" and officially and de jure Serbia had acting emperor in that years yet... BTW, I made small mistake about Kahramankazan in two ways - it is northwest not northeast of Ankara and in sense that it might be some Turkish coined (and shortened) word of place "where heroes are made/earned" not "cauldron" purely.... but anyway, not my subject and not orientalism languages/culture expert.

so, can it get more interesting than that in short look at events... Stefan Lazarević - hero of Ankara and "man who impressed Timur", if not the only one who had beaten him in battle - and founding member of Order of the dragon and person of great trust of Sigismund of Luxemburg who gave him some cities and mines... In the same time one who (probably against his christian oath, but Sigismund was silent although he knew) helped Anatolia based co-ruler Mehmed 1 to defeat his "Rumeli" based brother in decisive battle that ended "Ottoman interregnum". Battle of Camurlu i.e. Samokov in Bulgaria, wikipedia.

to join forces with his ally (and also half-uncle) Serbian ruler Stefan Lazarević

never heard expression "half-uncle" only half-brother and sister. Said in a way that Stefan sister was "step-mother" of Mehmed, but he was then also "half-uncle" to all other co-rulers and Mehmed brothers ("half-uncle" probably meaning "step-uncle" if there is such thing). But he favoured him for some reason in decisive battle... there is idea and (though possible by year of Mehmed birth) something rejected by all that Stefan sister was mother of Mehmed I. Saying btw as line is funny and rarely met... unlike situation from 1396-1402 with Bayazit, Stefan was not vassal of any of his sons, in that way not Mehmed's. But he helped him and fielded his "elite forces" attested in previous events, by Timur admiration and by Sigismund admiration... how that happened no idea, but obviously Lazarević (and partialy Branković) knights earned some "elite" status in both Anatolia, Rumelia (Turk lands) but also in western countries ruled by Sigismund. Was it training, equipment or else it is unknown... but in this paragraph wanted to look at "family ties" and personal ties between two man (there were none). other line:

Musa appeared to be winning the battle.... blah, blah ....the tide of the battle turned in favor of Mehmed, with the help of Serb and Byzantine troops, and Musa Çelebi fled

this is correct statement and another valuable source for our medieval history, demonstrating the way how Ottomans used Serb cavalry. They rarely attacked from the first line and wore christian emblems, often inactive in inital phases of the battle. But in some moments they charged or jumped into battle, shocking opponents... nice Turkish source, very helpful.

very interesting events and stories, very cinematic in many ways, misterious to how one of the founding members of "Dragon order" was so soft on Turks, almost their hero. Worth saying and, if nothing else, we gained, in normal political climate, superb medieval stories for "Turkish market" in one point in time, soon ; ... Turkish idea of renewing some sites in Serbia (and our idea of renewing some sites in Serbia)) is actually not imperialism when one think about it but good move to revive some stories and eventually profit on them via movies, plus think about wives (forget about Erdogan ideas he's just politician we can talk it all even if you vote him))

last post on the subject for now, welcome most seriously - generally I'd need some Turk historians here and in my life to objectively relook events of our interest... wanted to add some balance to many historical subjects I talked through thread but I forget to add orintalistic flavor to it...

slow day, perfect for this let's add something "new" on subject of great historic interest to me.... if - and there is no objective reason not to believe that - Evrenos, one of the Ottoman commanders (almost legendary living 200 years)) was indeed of Greek origin it explains some of mythical tone to the story of "Sırpsındığı" i.e. few hundreds versus tens of thousands which reminds of "Greek myths" from ancient times ; ... however some serious Turkish scholars of today, looking at events, are also ready to dismiss such claims and agree that Ottoman forces in events (in 1365 or historical 1371) were much larger and compromised of different and geographically separated forces around area and Edirne itself - but lured (majority) Serb empire forces in some kind of trap on both sides of Adrianople/Edirne... name of the village so far from Maritsa, plus (some agree) fact that Evrenos himself could have been in the area in the time (with some forces sent by Murat possible) are in line with such view. No realistic way that Serb forces (with other tribes included) could have exceeded 20-30000 in both Maritsa and Kosovo, realistic Turks would agree... from western perspective, "news" is that papal sources would not remain silent for all those time (we all got some valuable lines from papal sources as I presented on king Milutin for example) and as far as we all know there is nothing there to confirm Turkish source about 1365 battle.

nonetheless, Ottoman-Turk sources are great for us in many ways, plus we would never know full story about Ankara and ties between Stefan and Bayazit without modern Turkish source by "Kemalist" general I mentioned several times... same goes for medieval sources from that empire which showed that in all events we had greater role in Turkish myth than previously thought. One Turkish modern and recently written text even claims (from Turk milady, which makes me double happy)) that - in some distant and forgotten way - Turkish flag is partially based on bloody events of Kosovo battle 1389, something very few people know today.... we also learned that some of Turkish commanders ("savge Orcs") in XIV and XV century were of Serb family origins converted in Macedonia etc. etc.... also one small detail (true or not) is that Mehmed I considered Stefan "almost idol, father" and intentionally gatered troops in Ankara with possible "Sirp gazi" location before going to meet him in Kosovo in 1413, prior to battle of Çamurlu/Samokov mentioned. There are other details and are interesting...

doubt it is much interesting for average forum reader, but super interesting for medievalist and Serb history lovers so I share. While Ottoman sources are full of mythical elemants (like epic poetry in Greece or Serbia for example, probably many western countries) looking at them and taking some interesting lines leads to greater knowledge and certainly less distrust, hopefully....

...from our side - last one for now to round some ties, but unrelated to anything previously which is open question - there was interesting case of famous noble Musa, who raised to prominence probably during Dušan's times and was mentioned by "weak" emperor son later in documents. He was married to Lazar's sister and 2 of his sons died in Kosovo battle (he died before but maybe took part in earlier battles himself)... nothing is known about his origin for certain.

some academic circles asked question - due to his obviously eastern name present with Turks, by Dušan's time well present on Balkan as people in smaller areas, was he possibly of Turk origin. Answer that "he wasn't Turkish" due to animosity (but not very strong yet) between Serb and various Turkish states of the time - not only Ottomans, but also Emirate of Aydin with whome first ever "Serbo-Turk" battle in history took place - by some part of academic public is a bit with some small prejudice ; because that would not be problem for some converted Turk (or from christian family) to be good servant and part of Serb empire, like some Greeks were for example (Oliver etc.)

other part of science looks at it more realisitically and doubt his Turkish origin without prejudice but question that name, often written in sources as Mlsa, was just his nickname, when you look at it nicknames were present in significant part among Serb nobility of the time (like Grčin, Oliver's father, which is obvious nickname given to him etc.).... anyway, he is first mentioned after Dušan death but probably made gains during his campaign as young noble who followed Dušan expansion and two of his sons died in battle with Ottomans in 1389...

why story? .... well if by any chance he was of Turk origin, it's great story and prove that "Turk" could have been good Serb noble (in theory) as any other tribe of that time present around. and that we as well had some medieval "Turk heroes" among us (only "if" but why not sharing suspicion)

really try to finish for now unitil something important, could go forever, but it is significant subject for understanding middle ages relatively better, especially relations with Trukish realms, which often had human dimension and mutual mixing...

very smart line from one American author (Nicholas Danforth) he said in interview about his book (I'll not read because i doubt it will be in sell here)) but like this thinking...

Journalist: What is the main message of your upcoming book “The Remaking of Republican Turkey: Memory and Modernity Since the Fall of the Ottoman Empire”?

Danforth:One aspect of it is the rewriting of history in order to fit the new geopolitical developments. So, for example, in 1953 Turkey celebrated the 500th anniversary of the conquest of Constantinople. Turkey had just joined NATO the previous year and the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople, a western city, was presented as being an expression of Turkey’s pro-Western orientation. There were talks about how the conquest of Constantinople helped trigger the Renaissance in Europe and also helped save Greece from Russian domination because the Ottomans protected the Greek Orthodox Church from the Russians. I assume that the rewriting of history will continue to happen in accordance with changing geopolitical realities.

yes, that's one of dangers and would be "fake history".... however, since some of my lines here (and in "open mike") might seem as something like this, must intervene for the sake of the reader (esp. some Greek)) and explain things.

Similar to mister's view I also had old joke saying I wonder when book/text will be published calling all of our emperor Dušan's XIV century actions as influenced or directly encouraged by Russia In that sense, all I said and all I independently research considering and including our ties and events including Turks (as people) and Ottomans as one of "emirates" that become empire is NOT any rewriting or whitewashing etc.

All I am trying to say and "giving some voice to Turkish sources" is actually trying to give them human face and to present truth that some rulers did cooperate (as well as Romean/Greek ones) with Turkish states during crucial days and struggle which Ottomans (deservedly on field of battle) won... And that man like Stefan - by some called "representative of art-liking monarch" and with "western head" - did see humans in Turks and imagined coexsistance and cooperation possible, risking own life in probably biggest battle medieval Serbs took part in (Ankara) to prove that...

hope it clears it, no "rewriting" and no cultural judgements by me there... except Dušan's grand ambition (and objectivelly we had no manpower for that) and most honestly he seems as alright historical figure to me and non-brutal man to me, no pretensions about any cultural mark of our tribe on any other in some way... btw, one must also note that before Serb expansion coalition of Bulgaria and Romea against Serbia was made and in some indirect way it was counter reaction - my view - but I am not hiding constant and unmasked correspondence (and desire for mutual action and even partition of Constantinople) with Venice, Dušan obviously had or tried to have... greatest story "globally" about the man is still amazing 2,10 + meters, mamma mia

when you read deeper and add geopolitics, as American mister said, yes I understand the dangers of "fake history" that should be avoided, so I stressed this all out... however, from our part giving human face to Turks and Ottomans and insisting on both combats but also cooperation episodes is only good. As this is "public place" although small forum, important to say again... again, help with events of our medieval interest in form of source and opinion form Turkey always welcome - changes nothing globally but isn't it great to know that for centuries "Sirp gazi" name stood there generally or what Timur said about Stefan's cavalry action i.e. "lions" etc. In Chinese way - I could declare this year in personal way "year of Turkey" and it is great feeling, I do like country and people, females (which I'd marry anytime) etc. Need any help from there about circa 1360-1420, btw and agian.

been active past few days, to me important but now mostly over .... "Great developments and things gathered around. For us, our history above all but also future "relations" with Turkey and once cinematic cooperations etc. not so much for humanity but it is interesting to read since I talked so much here.... where to start - sadly, made no Turk contacts, mostly own research, that's one thing, second is that Greek one confirmed that some recent Greek historians (like me) think that it was mainly part of Ottoman myth and some even doubt that Adrianople was even captured by Ottoman Turks in years of 1364-65, only later. But my Bulgarian and Greek contacts also, very objectively, say that sometimes their historiography - due to historical competition now over in Macedonia for example - intentionally tried to "mention Serbs less" even in long gone events.... ; Fact that toponym around modern Edirne mentiones Serbs expicitely, even though myth mix events with some "crusader army" including Hungarian king etc, shows that they considered our medieval state as "something big" even in days of feudal anarchy and weak central power after Dušanćs death.... in that sense, thanks to Ottoman sources although most likely it was mix and myth based on unfortunate fate of king Vukašin expedition in 1371 (without foreign forces, except Greeks and Bulgarians who joined him...) and trap he feel in, something maybe talked a lot in early Ottoman empire...

so, since there and to start with, unlike I said before "Sırpsındığı" aka "Serb destruction" toponym is still present around Turkish town Edirne and wider. Name of village as mentioned did change but one can find that name in geographical things (i was dealing with Turk language myself) maybe some plains around, maybe natural park etc. and probably wider area northwest of Edirne was all known by the name... since mentioning, found text in which some local politician some 5-6 years ago mentioned idea to make "thematic/historical/amusement park" around there to commemorate events and renew historical interest no idea was that project cancelled, what's status and all... and not so important (never visited village and area myself...).... to continue with lighter tone subjects, one can even buy "Sirpsindigi" fridge magnet online (not made in Turkey) and how far story reached shows that there is small street in Stambol (ex Constantinople) called Sırpsındığı sokak - on pic with name on red table left... small but cute street, clean and as seen with mosque towers nearby, with lots of new buildings and small shops although without some historic charm and old buildings. it is "relatively" near part of city known as "Belgrade gate"... Not sure if it is nice to have kids growing in "Serb destruction" street but it is cool and "flattering" as much bigger nations do not have "sokak" (small street) with their destruction mentioned in such megapolis of Stambol ... if you visit it, be sure not to be your last stand More serious discoveries in second post i make below...

...great part is this.... lets start with this. In work of Turkish professor Recep Mesut found some super interesting things. He wrote some small story about events also known as "war of Serb destruction" in their sources and visited location and village himself. Didn't give answers but he "presented things in mythical way" but showed some doubt in work... what's important? Well, first of all for our history he talked about (myth or fact) that king Vukašin survived battle and Turkish trap trying to make his way out but was (by that Turk myth or story) killed somewhere even maybe in modern Bulgaria... long live the hero Other aspect is that mister professor tried to find some table/monument few decades ago (maybe in 80s) about battle in the area and he didn't, but he was allowed into military barracks nearby and officer on duty showed him some table inside barracks with "Sırpsındığı war i.e. Serb destruction war was fought here once" and flag on it... he told army officer that place is so far from Maritsa river and unlikely site of place where Serbs would end up in river (over 20 km), officer replied to him something like "probably not, but table is standing for some time and built by previous commander so they do not want to move it..." interesting story and great detail about our unfortunate king ;

since i mentioned Turkish army (it is all their traditions and part of myth not something to be understood as hostility and desire to "destruct us", relax they will give us daugther hands)) found also "US army publication" https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Portals ... Book-1.pdf where mister Turkish army colonel Özgür Körpe, PhD, sent a letter talking about Ataturk but mentioning shortly "Sırpsındığı battle" in mythical way, so some circles really believe in events, though proven that - as name says, there was nobody else than Serbs mostly few years later... but this is minor and unimportant mention.... Do not follow all events, but we had military cooperation with Turks agreed some years ago, while neutral superpower ourselves ; so only as indicator that story was talked a lot in some their sources and is "flattering" for small country, again...

Finally, unrelated to "Sirpsindigi" aka Maritsa battle events and myths, found something I believe was "doctor dissertation" by mister Can Eyüp Çekiç about "epic and war literature in XIX century Ottoman empire" and super interesting detail... he talked about some "history textbook for military academy students" written and circulated in 1888 (well after our full independence) where late XIX c author/authors talked a lot about "gazi/hero ideals", early Ottoman empire, Bayazit, even "jihad" and all - but best detail is that mister Çekiç found a line “the heroism of Ottoman ghazis, who spent their lives at fight, and Serbian soldiers with heavy armors that Ottomans had never witnessed, rendered the battlefield fearsome but also delightful.” Super interesting and "cool" but do not mistake Stefan for jihadist Story is true, it survived centuries and it confirms that Serb knights were "force that Ottoman-Turks never seen before..." maybe even Timur. Nice line.

while I'll continue to dig, this all mostly concludes this whole theme and hardly both we and Turks can find something more (but never say never). Generally - on Maritsa battle - part is myth, year doubtful, Hungarian or other participation unlikely (as our emperor Uroš "the weak" was alive and was in bad relations with Hungary as his "strong" father was, among other reasons) etc. etc. But thanks a lot to Turks and for preserving both this and Stefan story (even romanticising it a bit) and 100% sure we both can make absolutely great medieval artworks and films on both subjects, especially Stefan role, but I said it many times .... while i conclude it for long, of course one can always add to it and join, I'm not over with searching every little detail for own pleasure and to all readers... "Sırpsındığı" name anywhere in that country, as long as it's in respectful historical way, is "cool" and too bad we are small to be even sexier in your eyes, but skillfully directed film could ashame even Hollywood greats welcome as always if you know more, want to add or simply to correct some of my translations, no need to be "professor-doctor" just older history fan.... all others, hope appreciated and enjoyable to know... my ideas and conclusions are "copyrighted" btw but open to cooperation and conquest of our both markets

so, yes let's put this here in somehow proper historical place I hijacked but on topic ) to make logical unity with other topics...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rise_of_Empires:_Ottoman

(not to link to netflix because it would be considered marketing ; but you'll find it there)

personal recommendation for every Serb medieval history lover and everyone else, of course. Deals with fall and conquest of Constantinople... Turkish production, for Oscar Seriously if you missed it, you can find one of the rare cinematic representations anywhere of our "last" ruler Đurađ, but do not mind age and height of their actor ) One of the most popular Turkish actresses plays his daughter Mara, even use our language briefly in "film", our already close to death court is presented as place where paintings are made and much, much more. Both Mehmed and Constantine are related to our nobility of the time, "our kids". Mara's role is a bit fantastically represented as almost the one which "raised Mehmed and decided about final attack" but it is all just another respectful, although semi-fantasy representation by Turks, because they love us.... ;

all histoical ups and downs taken into consideration and bit of fantasy unavoidable with any medieval and ancient subject due to doubtful and bad sources, must give them credit, mostly their actors playing IMO very good and "westernized" there plus very good job to Italian actor doing Constantine. Must say I did not even know about this documentary-film mix before talking about future cinematic cooperations we will have with them, but after seeing it I'm even more sure that they will happen ...And that some Turkish girl in film will defect to Serbs in 1402, for example My honest support and thanks to Turk production for unpaid marketing there, if able and interested certainly look at it and give them favorable "emotion" around at cinema reviews ;

http://birchbarkpress.yolasite.com/reso ... %20blk.pdf
The Song of Prince Igor

...let's put (really fast and in haste, but generally i don't have some huge material) some opinions and looks on - to me - very interesting and maybe little known question of that "famed Serb armor" which was round maybe Dušan's time till the fall of 1459. In Lazarević Serbia it was also refered to as "black" by at least Greeks, but short on that later... (wasn't unique as black but very unique becase source talks about at least hundreds of heavy black knights, rarely mentioned anywhere)

must say i'm also mildly surprised and Turk lines "about something never seen" (and mind that Turks i.e. Ottomans had already many contacts with many western armies since crusades, to regions in Asia minor and wider) gave great source and material to look at it... what can one say, even after some investigations, very little in concrete sadly due to fall of state and we didn't even know fate of most potent ruler's body for at least 200 years, let alone details as such - little to none evidence survived and great pieces of our history is either narrative or filling the blanks. What I can say is that we have evidence of full plate steel armor in our armies in Đurađ's times i.e. circa 1427 and later, best quality equal to Europe powers... BUT it wasn't in use (full plate) in times of Stefan and certainly not before, yet some episodes look like it was better protection than ususal of the time. So sources are true to call it "plate armor". I conclude that most of equipment of the time was Italian made and we have few sources confirming trans-Adriatic orders in second half of XIV century (possibly and naturally even before, but this is time of concern). When it comes to us (golden forks aside)) we had huge mining operations as known and some metal processing works of our own but certainly not anyhing of Italian, German and similar manufacturing capabilities... at best one could say that armor, originating from Italian lands (as were case with church architects often with us, for example hence "Serb style" i.e. mixed architecture) was maybe modified for Serb elite and tested (not plates maybe, but other pieces where chain armor was insuficient etc. etc.... Generally what can one say again, too few sources and most likely we will never know why something was so effective or "unseen"....

to mention that black color - it can indicate many things while story is more for tale about expressing "sadness" while forced to follow Ottoman demand/command... some talks i had some time ago in theory might indicate a) that it was maybe ususal "Serb color" or distinction for much longer time than Stefan's rule and might originate in Asia - something like "tribal color" b) more interesting, that it had purpose in Ottoman service i.e. Serb troops and knights were always used as "shock troops" and much heavier than anything Turks used in the time, and often hidden (might be case in Nicopolis and Ankara) in woods or distance... so wild guess in one talks might be that color of armor was intentional to decrease reflection and position during "hidden phase" or movement in short distances before fatal charges.

nothing spectacular after investigations, merely interesting and specualtive but added it as well for period history lovers, however just because i looked at it some time ago but never said anything and this looks like convinient technicality always "liked"... not place for neither time period and some details as well, so i'll not come back to meds... and i put enough for today 7 mills country anyway medieval history is hardly "national" but interesting to what we achieved being small and also migratory tribe, and as i say comically to Turks at least we went out of scene for 300 years with a bang in serie of big battles, honorably... what we looked after comeback 300 years is all your fault comedy aside, hopefully at least technical details and giving some credit to what Turks said about "our power" in the times was fun/informative through thread.... thanks for idea btw Bombast i talked enough

....whole this year period is very nice for subject, though i said it is mostly over by me and it is, but currently looking at some things, will put another post, but do not expect much activity....

reading something about this firstly Austrian (do not mix with Australia)) duke and later king of Hungary, for short https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_II_of_Germany and German-Roman emperor (no problem about it, our emperor was also "Roman" by title) etc. Lived in times of Đurađ i.e. George in English but that rare and our letter is not hard at all - like Luigi or Gioconda, so some softer "J" ; and was mentioned in some document during interesting and dramatic happenings for our state, but died before first fall of Serb despotate (just explaining why he was mentioned and why i was reading...)) totally unimportant but he also held (like Sigi) title kings of "....Serbia i.e. Rascia...." as many Habsburgs after as well, but hardly "de facto or de jure".... since mentioned again, whenever I read about it, must be said "hats off to the ground" to Nemanjić dinasty for so skillfully balancing and steering country i.e. "united feuds" and managing even short empire, very ambitious and skillful.... don't know and not important, must be something I say that pushed Venetians, Hungarians, Byzant away from Serbia/Rascia at least for 200 years and it did not share fate of Croatia, Bosnia, even declining Bulgaria although being in "cold-hot" relations with catholics powers (and orthodox Byzant) from the start of kingdom.... maybe it is indeed economy, Venetian "green-light", maybe indeed it is best described by Ottoman-Turk line "something never seen" regarding fighters but they did final conquest after all... btw, there is also some speculation and even archeological find of large sceletons, that Dušan wasn't only "freak" walking around Serbia/Rascia of the time man's size, looks and "presence" was rare in Europe, one of the first thing that impressed me as kid when i heard.... since mentioned line "how we managed" must be said that many western historians do (even if not doing it detailed) respect our mediaval history and sometimes even wrongly put wrong numbers, for those who think that "they all hate/disrespect us". Generally, Nemanjić Serbia is "respected and credited" in western historiography often if mentioned

humoristically - to come back to Albrecht Habsburg - noticed at first look how man looked like one famous Bosnian folk-pop singer (of muslim part by origin as we called them before) good one as voice, but same as him ....instantly remembered story i told about Habsburg princess which didn't want to marry Dušan and I biasedly imagined her as some redhed or blonde (mentioning even some Irish actress for the role)) while in fact Dušan might have been "as Viking" to her, pigmentation wise - but she disliked idea and maybe died (maybe killed by enraged relatives) anyway, to come back last time to it, can imagine the shock in girl after question "how is he" and answer "215 cm" humoristic para, showing that there should not be bias as early Habsburgs were of brown-eyed and haired after all, for what it matters (of course it doesn't matter) but is fun how easy is to distribute wrong roles...

more seriously, second part is that it reminded me about, considering that state was known as "rich" and printed even ambitious "dinars-denarii", had trade and small but diversly populated towns - that Jews are very rarely mentioned in our state and their status... in lack of sources i would not draw paralels with any other state, even orthodox like Bulgaria, Kievan Russia, Byzant as we were specific and "sui iuris" through whole kingdom history. But, the fact remains Jews are not mentioned much - maybe there wasn't much to mention, maybe they converted early in melted into Serb nobles and traders, during Nemanja even maybe... nonetheless to mention that they are rare subject in Rascia or Serbia.

last para, as "new year gift" before leaving it for long (maybe yes, maybe some inspiration comes) - must return to numbers and something about some battle - while 100,000 is fantastic and wrong number for some battle (earlier emperor's 80,000 maybe even slightly probable if Serbs hired many mercs and he mobilized every noble under him but dubious) must say that even between 15,000-30,000 for Lazar is to me personaly very, very large number... not to mention things like 10,000 heavy super equiped knights at Ankara, equipment of the type - as battle described must then include impressive armoured war horses as well - was very expensive... though country was known for its golden forks and spoons lets say that personally in any era Serbia/Rascia could not field more than 2000-3000 heavy knights ot man-at-arms (of course other soldiers vere light or unarmoured or "artillery", archers of "hussars" etc...) Generally about armored size and about army size in general, my opinion.... hope i made at least 80% of posts interesting for all global readers, it takes some effort to type, but like to share this.

here's btw - in lack of anything - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CUmcEHO4R8 man and one of the songs I like, while not my style generally and there are much more "legendary" songs from the 80s - this one has that "medieval rhythm amd strength" one can imagine following (very drunk like Vukašin)) knights in their ride to death or glory in battle.... with even picture but semi-profiles when he was younger do look more like Albrecht, everyone knowing them will agree Must say, Greeks, Turks, Bosnians, Albanians are true masters of such rhythms and music in originali sense - true musical "Balkan" while some like us, just copies fairly said.... as i touched subject with humor certainly not something our (Serb) medieval elite listened to and strong drums and even trumpets were not so present (while trumpet is "Roman" characteristics as well) generally more orientalistic "schmeck", while i do not negate chance that even ancient Serbs as well were Asian warrior tribe, like Magyars - and here is that letter again maybe some Serb/Croat and Magyar thing from Asian steppes and old homelands.... Rascian and Zetan and other medieval music was usually with "weaker rhythm" initally ....but yes no doubt that Vukašin would go mad and break few "horns" on his last ride east.... most seriously and last time, whole story about Maritsa (still investigating) while having some satirical tone in it, is of course not completely true and most likely one section of our feudal armies did cross the river, numbers were more balanced and there was most likely more to whole battle than usual narrative as later clashes between Serbs and Turks showed and there was mutual "respect" and desire to challenge on field... but congrats to Turk Matirsa/Evros tactics what ever they were in reality and one thing is not in doubt - it was some kind of disaster and last Nemanjić died same year, regardless if he and imperial troops actually had role of significance in Vukašin's (and his brother Uglješa) campaign. Nice, iconic battle in our history if nothing else and "swan song" of our "strength" so Turks named it very well as "Sirpsindigi" i.e. "Serb destruction", with some respect

Magyar is, btw, Hungarian. forgot that very few nations use that term which is proper and we are one of them as we are close and know how they speak, so it became official, though historically we also used term Ugars - under often false and generic Old (church) slavonic languages, more natural to Bulgarian and Macedonian (not to be mixed with North Macedonia today) dialects, not Serbo-Croat natural which is different - reason for "enforcing" it on many of us was practical as we, as true Scyths, were illiterate.... and is one of the main reasons our (concretely Serbian for example) often looks more similar to Russian and we call Russian girls sisters, not wanting anything to do with them as it would be incestous ....seriously, always interesting subject and we as migrants through millenia are privileged to have oportunity to research and talk about it so much, plus undoubtful presence of Iranic tribes that shared our name gave us extra cool "schmeck", very few tribes can have.... but not important ultimately, though nice subject for deep science and has no practical importance except showing how superior we are and conquer you all ..... joked about Russian girls, of course I do babies and they made us around the fall of (our) old Roman world (founded by Servius), after we decided not to be Scyths anymore in old homeland

primarily wanted to put this and is serious and scientific - as goodbye on thread, quite obvious I can talk a lot about medieval subjects and have analitics desires, but just enough for now - regarding numbers, there is always that feeling I did not explain well.... so to give some context why they are funny and people printing books should reject them, while that is wider issue, not anythig local. So my context: let's say we had 50,000+ at Evros-Maritsa-Marica, lets say few years later we had 100,000 at Kosovo, lets say emperor had also 80,000 of which many were old or dead by then, but some still in service and mind that by 1370s Epirus, Albania etc. already separated - now do the calculation and when you imagine Dušan's empire as whole you (by surely inapropriate numbers) it has been very powerful so why writing amicable letters to Venice or making alliances with some Greek nobles to conquer Salonika, instead of just marching on to Venice or even Rome and take the ships or Paul's insignia for example... so yes, you get idea generally and number inflation was unrealistic, hope i now explained it solid on example. so certainly not 70,000 out of Vukašin's pub crew (just imagine how much wine would they have to drag from the base)) not as many as 100,000 in Kosovo field etc. etc.... our history wasn't so "numerical" more iconic as I say and we gave them good scare due to size and (agreed even by western historians) good equipment and armor + being mercs hub, but modest in numbers... even fast collapse of Hungary (for example) might indicate inflation of their true power (in mubers like us i mean, while both countries were pretty successful in given period) or story about previous Angevine king Luis of Hungary who tried to enter Rascia few times, but retreated after arrival of Dušan and they avoided each other..... as conclusion, numbers greately inflated often, but that is something we face from ancient times. (not we as we but as history often)

last thought - maybe i come back with some art piece i looked at in few days I wanted to comment, but maybe not as not important, but generally over - symbolism and strategic importance of river (and bigger water mass) was true and present very much in our history and wider (we know Barbarossa story) and in many smaller clashes in Rascia-Serbia, not known at all... it is obvious, by pushing heavy knights towards it you gain strategic "ally" of great importance and we were known as "heavy" at least from XIII c onwards..... hope i explained alright why numbers are funny, yet still unrealistcally present in modern texts, while i said knightly that even if 80,000 Ottomans pushed 80 Serb heavy knights (even drunk) in river in reality generally it doesn't change history and I give credit to Turk victories against very advanced armies of ours, which amazed even advanced Italians and Byzant at times. have fun with history, of couse battles are not all about it, but i also gave some cultural influences and even how mining looked like, theories in art like Umberto Eco's with events which might have some touch with our history as well etc. all in numerous posts but that's it.... Dante's few times mention of Rascia in "Comedy" shows we were present and noticed and i knightly as well say that Italians were very important for those 200 years i talked so much like they were 2000 my omni-present humoristic tone is not romantic, on the contrary satirical and hardly romantic, just our history of the times is so badly sourced and sometimes funny and is great material for "secon-third-fourth" look at it.... foreign tribes are often "scared" when other tribes talk about history, but that shouldn't be the case. for example, i take it calmly and do it as test, re-read, re-think while doubting everyone (except Dušan, of course)) and then it is much more interesting, can be recommendation as hobby to anyone.... and again, if you take it calmly, you can imagine Dante having Serb silver dinar in his hand (quite possible he had) and laughing at all while writing famous lines to his work, not as expression of dislike but, oppositely, as some kind of disbelief and respect to what "damned Rascians did" sending our king "to hell" with smile on his face, for example

...btw, regarding main point of our forum - i don't play much OG and ww2 games lately (except that action game i mentioned in other thread) so this was only "presence" of mine mere material for forum and what i imagined could present as intersting (like some expo entry) than idea to attract anyone new, that's abandoned..... as are my entries mostly, but wasn't trouble at all and if even one line is something fun or unknown, success.

....there is "polemic" with Italians on how that name Rascia actually sounded and was pronounced in old Italian dialects and which form of Latin was used so maybe as one of the options was Rash-I-a in fact or Ras- as first part alone then adition so not "Rasha" maybe and exclusively.... for those who never heard of name, nothing ethnic nor connected to Russian lands, name is derivated simply from old Roman fort Arsa, which Serbs renamed Ras and Italians and others users of vulgar Latin forms accepted giving name to the state as whole... for Serbs it was "Rashka", region of "grand duke/baron/whatever" -wouldn't call it prince as we also have word prince today for king's son but it is translated as principality probably properly as it was title prior to kings - btw, back then king's son was usually refered to "young king" esp. if first in order by primogeniture...

thought to put this photo (not mine) of church (St Peter and Pauls, name) nearby the now ruins of "glorious Rome", it is oldest church in country and among older on peninsula (some are maybe under earth somewhere in various countries). It is UNESCO protected so very important for all of you ....Italian, German, our etc. etc. scientist agree that it dates back to times of Constantine himself and is of similar age of some "more famous" ruins in Rome ; ...sadly it is not its original form and was reconstructed in VII and IX centuries, while by XII it also lost any role for Serbs as well as more grandious projects were made and state got stronger. Original church and maybe Roman temple previously was maybe more interesting in design which is lost.... interestingly our archeos few decades ago found royal grave not related to Rome and Byzant at all but dating back to V century BC and Greek artefacts so site is interesting for Hellenistic cultures and their range as well, maybe used by Celts (for ritual blood-drinking)) and others so certainly interesting.... so certainly interesting place with ruins of old capital even if you do not like religion as it is much more than church and protected by UN in short Ras and why Rascia, nice to add to thread as someone might wonder. Place lost importance for Serb expanding kingdom pretty fast (sadly due to fame and glory) and was almost unimportant before the Ottoman conquest as Serb centers and most important seats were much larger in other areas, btw... worth explaining isn't it toen Ras vulgarization of Arsa, nothing with Rus but would be funny if name survived till today (do babies my love)) ....tumbstones closest to us are not from that era but there are very old including Roman graves there.....

...it is late, just finished something a bit stubborn but not so much to do useles things where place isn't... no idea what i wanted initially, probably to see if anyone knows anything, visiting anything, knows something interesting or recommend historical event he doubts in (for example), but then i went to investigations and now maybe to finish in this style i touched last - "touristical". some special place, something interesting or similar. not expecting anything, but probably for the end here...

there isn't much left, mostly monasteries but was much more once except them, "eaten by time", not to say humans ;.... my fav places if you into something artistic or architectural in fact and ever even pass by, from modest offer as explain and which are our heritage are personally monasteries of Studenica - patronized by super famous Nemanja founder of dinasty (first pic) and monastery Visoki Dečani (second pic, on Kosovo) patronized by Dušan's father Stefan D. and finished by him.... conicidence by rulers I "respect". Nemanja & Dušan i mean but not considered his at all but father's (his would be recommended but sadly gonne as well, had unique details in our architecture) they all lived by the times rules and all humans, but both very skilled, second even emperor with amazing ambitions and height. Personally think it wasn't murder at all and if it was again personally think "good king" Stefan D. provoked it, by my sources and sniffing - maybe in line with Dušan's halfbrother later behavoir, but that's just theory... conquest not so important, it was diplomacy of the times and background is much more complex even continentally (he was obviously in anti-Angevin camp, but he liked French "baba" which maybe wasn't so French)), plus when you are 2,15 and with much gold almost expectable ; nothing brutal for the times.... Back to subject, merely because of looks of both main churches personally and (not really master of English myself but solidly using and now tired to pricesaly use words) ornaments on facade works i.e. "plastic works" (so called "plastics" i.e. facede itself). Touch by Italian and coastal masters but also parts were ruined through time and not 100% like they were in original sense. First one is also in nice white marble (main church) - second good works as seen on that personally fun santo-baptism detail i like because saints are looking like they are smiling and having some fun indeed which wasn't master's worker intention (and they are not smiling i guess) They are "smiling" and conicidence hehe, they were made during events from Eco's book ; Both in so called "Romanic" (again lazy to find correct word) predominant style, but we had many styles in short time frame and modest territory including own "Rascian" because best of (feuds) in the times, will not mention golden forks - but not with arguably best paintings and art collections (also reduced and devastated through time in general).... that's it, if you know something fun about era, visited something, know some historical details from "your countriside" etc etc always free to use this thread ... i like about art, arcitecture, battles or else if anyone passes by but also critical look at events and possibilities, but let be solid addition, "fav monuments" as i indeed posted very few pics, people like pics... good night, do not intend to be around, but it is all about momentual inspiration...... think it was worth though definitely not here

"plaster", "plasterization"...... not "plastic", seems I was thinking sinful thoughts again while writing but not important, it is same thing and similar almost synonims p

anyway - important to add to previous post - this is part i was reffering to https://youtu.be/jUUB96c6EpY regarding stonework on our church with humor.... didn't mention but master worker was also franciscan order member (Vitto) like Sean Connery i.e. William of Ockham, historical figure Eco based him on.... did Eco ever visited our churches I do not know but possible and he was "doctor honorary" of our university in later years and knew a lot about medieval Serbia as well.... not so crucial as his inspiration, as various masonic (not to mix with modern masonic lodges, this is medieval thing) symbols and theological and philosophical influences were present across the continent as well as our churches and among our feudals.... so yes, i would say we did play role in wider events of the time although orthodox country. Maybe even role worth of few films, but if you gonna put our historical figures in them please make them tall, very armored and sexy ....no joke ultimately, when you connect some dots our usually known history of meds might become even more interesting, but do not get too carried away as we were moderate powerful country i.e. united feuds of the times but certainly included in some papal thoughts and actions (positive and negative to us and sometimes we even benefited from catholic actions and always promising: "yeah we will convert later")), theological currents and events wider than orthodox world.... so as i say if you see Dušan not only local ruler but on possibly same side with English king, Spanish rulers and else for example, even more interesting isn't it... but i also talked about it and clash our rulers had with Avignon and Angevins before, nice episode - Dečanski tried to get us closer to Angevines.... and he had to be.... you know.... it is sad i know.........Teutonic order i blame, itchy fingers everything possible but have fun with analysises, i added this primarily for people not knowing "name of the rose" film and why i see that on our church, plus francisacan tie is very nice.... hopefully small notes i presented from our history are nice for any medievalist

....also one important thing - people today like to speculate and fantacise, speculating is btw alright if based on some "deep knowledge" like Umberto's or mine but you have to have it before speculating.... to be honest "deep medieval knowledge" is also construction as sources are very questionable as is some things we know, so we "medievalist" speculate and it gives us some mystic aura compared to modern history, often much better sourced

why saying? just not to mix things and extend them to every period, for example... film mentioned for example was directed by French man, that's where importnat difference is visible. what i'm trying to say is that i'm able to look French in the face and say "you are guilty" and she will understand, but it doesn't extend to modern times as - for example Karageorge wrote first letters to Napoleon, being "Austrian soldier" himself etc. etc... there is generally no constant in European politics although people may see some things as "constant" from middle ages... that's why our late Nemanjić rulers were great (and Nemanja for example) as they involved bravely into "big fish" game struggling Angevines (related to Capetians as cadets), hoping to marry Habsburgs and things like that all to council of Constance, where possibly Stefan L. representatives took some role (undocumented) as strong ally of Sigismund etc.

point is, i did not talk about modern French nor what happened in the high/late middle ages is by automation similar to later centuries when we were "back on scene" (very different and poor)) nor modern times... Templars, Teutonics, Hospitalers were possibly present in our lands and harboured and under protection of some of our rulers and French crown was disliked, but again nothing with modern times.... that's where our history is fun - being pro Hubsburg (and pro English but that's unrelated) during medieval peak it is nice puzzle medieval history, esp in our case due to totally twisted things again due to bad sources... do not mix French crown and our crown with various French merc we had, for example (and their girls in "tavernas")) some of them disliked their kings as well and would rather "die for Rascia"... i think both we and French historians can laugh and be proud that before French kings attacked papacy and templars (for example) they turned against us i.e. our rulers first - maybe French crown owned some money to Nemanjć's .... later books Eco, Brown just gave whole event and our crown of the time some additional "coolness" ....but again, do not mix medieval issues and policies with modernity, XIX c or anything... we and French are lovers.....)

apropos my last post (in "open mike") and as addition in more appropriate place - by documental, spoken and elite language of the medieval times Serbia 3 terms for Albanians dominated: Albaninas influenced by Latin, Arnaut and Arbanas influenced and derivation from Greek i.e. "Romean" (Byzantine) dialects... to be clear. Alb- turning into Arv- is some Greek thing basically and we Rascians as always were innovative and had term which combined both Latin and Greek pronouncements i.e. mentioned "Arbanas" mentioned in Dušan's times and in equal use with others. Already talked about Greek (both Byzantine we called Romean and folk) distortions as we were also "victims" of them as Scythish-Slavic "Serb-" turned into "Serv-", but it didn't demask our origin completely as we further masked it as "Srb"...... of all distortions scientist discovered through centuries to me personally most interesting is pretty recent by brilliant German scientist who discovered by analysing Persian langiages something like very, very old Persian distortion of "srv- and srb-" into "hrv-" (i.e. "cro-" known by English, Italian etc) we clearly superior... but full of love for Albanian beauty

anyway... few things (just looked at English "Wiki") and there is confirmation "in support" of my theory that Preljub was of Albanian or half-A. origin (as well as some other nobles in our service)... he is mentioned pretty late as Dušan already penetrated deep into Greek, Albanian etc. lands and wasn't named in early events unlike even German (or should I say Austrian?) Palman, our "templares with horns" or any other of his "right hand men" (like Greek Oliver). Name is not usual among Serb elite and not often repeated and could be something as "adultery" or "before marriage" son, second. Third, he is given lands on deep south unlike lands Dušan usually gave to Serb lords i.e. northern parts and Macedon.... and last but not least - his actions in Thessaly were indeed supported by large formations of Albanian auxiliary troops making it realistic that he knew a lot about Albanian customs, maybe language or mentality - why Dušan gave him role to negotiate with Albanians..... nonetheless, while not important that much nor he as figure, he remains as some "Serb duke", interesting merely for eventual nice movies we will make with Albania about whole era and impress them all...

to recapitulate some things for the pause (its not like we are having any traffic anyway) ....if nothing else, if no size nor longevity not global importance - but very iconic for us, wouldn't say matter of pride or glory but honestly interesting episode and our achievement - from border guards to caesars, despots and emperors in very advanced high/late middle ages unlike Bulgaria which done it pretty early or unlike Germany with its size or muscle, one of the few European countries that had level of empire at all (not to mention one of biggest and most impressive looking emperors in Europe history) .... now where is additional "coolness" - despite modest size, we had such iconic places like birthplace of Alexander, Philip and their land as part, we had mt. Olympus as part and many many more.... and by coincidence final frontier was near also iconic Thermopylae, but our rulers turned to north-west, some coastal towns and maybe Constantinople by 1350 so Athens wasn't planned in the time of emperors death. Pretty cool though short lived, that's why we love Nemanjić dynasty and Dušan, not as some symbol of needed conquest and something with other nations, something hateful... excessive brutality i completely exclude while different people probably had own habits or practices under his rule. If i'm to picture him, would show bad sides of times and dark atmosphere, various characters and arrogance - not some romantism, think medieval desires and market is "alive" with various "Vikings", "Thrones" and etcs... recommend Serbs or anyone to rethink and imagine good and then maybe offer or profit on good stories, iconic characters and unique descriptions we had in the times (even scared Timur himself)). time will come for maybe some medieval brand in cinema we would/could have, for fems only....)

to repeat, always "hungry" for any sources about that time and grateful why i mentioned Albania for example, think country could be great source for our imperial times if something preserved and that they would like movies and books about us, btw... sometimes only small parts show, like for example that "over 2 meters" standard in his personal guard i did not know but is logical for safety and impression reasons (if probable) etc etc. his talks with some and similar i never heard of (maybe more in papal and Anjou's dungeons hidden forever like how much money they owned us))... in that sense i finish this part - Byzant was very advanced and they preserved only but short video recording of events from Thessaly, our emperor speaking ...of course Greeks are "relaxed" about time and know that they have a lot of "guilt" and being part of empire as well and attacked us many times before, so it is not offensive subject to them at all....

have fun, as said any help, any source to me "like gold", but most known, rest probably ruined forever.

https://youtu.be/eS6BEnCPjFE

must use this place, for my usual "rant" and "protest" against Wikipedia articles, again English language ones because they are most important to any world reader... namely just checked article on Đurađ George Branković https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%90ura ... kovi%C4%87 wanting to see things related to my today post in "open mike" regarding totally unrelated subject and one castle in Ukraine i recommend for visit.... why am i laughing and while (thanks to all on heavens as they say) it has nothing political nor with that country - in that sense i noticed that article was also changed lately (i know because i checked it few years before and know that it was different) and a mild anti-George text was added in introduction like:

...Despot George was neutral during the Polish-Lithuanian (1444) and Hungarian-Wallachian (1448) crusades. In 1455, he was wounded and imprisoned during clashes with the Hungarians, after which the young Sultan Mehmed II launched the siege of Belgrade and its large Hungarian garrison. Despot Đurađ died at the end of 1456, due to complications stemming from the wound...

and while not so drastic and untrue per se, there is no mention in whole article about these episodes, very important to show how he resisted practically until death and very old age:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Leskovac

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kru%C5%A1evac

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Skobalji%C4%87

when you add it to text, George was also very involved in events before of siege of Belgrade and "Hunyadi heroics" and even more Serbian despotate was attacked before Belgrade and Hunyadi and George cooperated, what one can not get impression after reading article.... etc etc etc generally i's say 100s of examples of mild "anti tone" in many articles but laughable (maybe it was all Serb imagination as well as any previous history))

so again, carefully with Wikipedia and again my appeal to people wanting to write articles by own likening - simply do not do it so in this example man and our figure I'd say deserved mention of that late actions, while he indeed was in feud with Hunyadi before... is it now political or "image" battlefild... nothing against eventual Turkish readers, actually Ottoman-Turk sources were often much "better" and respectful (not always like maybe inventing story about Murad I death, nobody really knows how both rulers died in fact) and talk extensively about our role in events To people wanting some political points via articles again - do not do it, you change history in that way...

...since I mentioned it in "open mike" and think it is nice story i'll share it here although it has nothing to do with medieval history, but even in medieval times we had such stories... so, "apology" to Bombast for thread looking too "diverse" and not on topic but really like story and is worth knowing....

so, our first modern queen, beauty (i've seen the bust in museum and wanted to kiss it) in a way by medieval paternal family Russian and in modern sense Ukrajinka (paternally again) so i'm presenting story mostly to eventual readers from that country. Honorable woman in every way, unlike her Serb husband ....loyal to country, people and even Serb church all the time, until few army officers killed her son (they were later shot by Karageorgevićs, btw) ... few times even people in Belgrade stood with her against Serbian police and army.... out of deep disappointment he even converted to catholicism, like every true Ukrainian (just joking, of course, do join with some older history story you like)

nice story again, worth reading and liking imo.... to me not so much about geopolitics (as every Serb dinasty of the time was in a part at least loyal to Russian-Ukrainian lands today) but like the story because it is almost unbelievable how almost democratic Serbia was in late XIX century, having parliament even able to oppose king, force him to abdicate and similar things:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalie_of_Serbia

to change subject

of course i forgot in my "fav monuments" earlier post to mention also interesting complex and site to visit if ever around - monastery Žiča i.e. Zhicha pronounced. maybe even one of the most important.... haven't been there for long and i learnt that it is undergoing some change and "legendary" facade was peeled last year, haven't checked status probably undergoing some restoration or change of looks, however old ornaments stay.... 814 years old, founded by first king of Raška/Rascia and later place of coronation of every Nemanjić king, giving even name to nearby town "Kraljevo" (town of kings, but avoid towns generally))... also named as place that was specifically attacked, robbed and maybe lightly burned by famous XIII c Mongol invasions which didn't influence Serbia much and it became more powerful.... short history of "importance".... some collections and nice ornaments, plus maybe one of the best examples of "Raška style" much more than 2 i mentioned before, how could i forget it ...solid natural surroundings of complex, small river etc. if ever on road...

picture by Aleksandra I. - not some bird expert but quite sure it is nice falcon ; and as said old facade, now under change (or changed already, too lazy to check) .... posting more to note that it is nice I just forgot, long time... so addition now 3 fav surrvived medieval monuments/complexes - I'd like to talk about castles too but none survived ....Russians welcome do share something, whoever eventually...

....really, how to talk normally in such situation and to present it to public. actually, few days before the war I seen announcements exactly on some Ukraina-TV about some show made by some nice hugable lady about her travel and plan to present some Serbian medieval monuments in some show, reklama went many times a day on TV.... and now, you can stuff it you know where dear watchers ... it doesn't mean Russians can't compensate and they come in millions and are very welcome but they have greater taste and demands as tourists - Ukrainians would visit and bath in dirty river and visit medieval monasteries as well that's market of potential at least 25 millions (rest 15 wouldn't come anyway)) in doubt forever or temporarily lost, not to mention nice lady and her show nobody will see now... alas, really mean it.

anyway, here is main Žiča church after peeling, few had chance to see it that way and not many will see it so i share as "exclusive".... we have red churches so I like yellow color sometimes (as lemon) so would like yellow bright marble for change and then we can return traditional after, and change color every few decades ; ....maybe i'll come back with some pics in future as presence as place is dead, but will not mention you 2 anymore.... regarding castles I just remembered that our whole country is actually "castle not on earth, castle not on sky" as is name of one medieval folk story, meaning yeah and big dragon lives there..... lots of knights but fewer ladies

everyone knows i'm at humor and sometimes inspired to type ; ....must say to eventual readers in those countries that laugh is healthy, i feel for you and believe me i'm in no good position, but not in war so i'm not laughing and making fun of you and bad situation.... just for humor and to "translate" (as is name of the thread after all) to our readers that Serb fairytale i.e. medieval story i mentioned And i promise i finish after that, but think it is solid story... many liked it after hearing it, including Goethe and Mackensen

So, there were 3 brothers sons of the emperor - Ruslan, oldest, Krajinko, middle one and youngest Raško (known as Srba as well). They had youngest and most beautiful sister - Bjeločka.... they all loved her very much and cared about her, especially Raško. One day dragon called Jurop came from the sky and abducted Bjeločka So 3 brothers set themselves on the road to find dragon and free Bjeločka.... they find castle "not on sky, not on earth" and suspected sister is kept there by dragon.... Being most handsome and bravest too, Raško makes a ladder out of dead horse and climbs up. To cut it short, he find Bjeločka and kill the dragon with his golden mace... he also finds 3 girls and liberate them all for himself and brothers. But older brothers, Krajinko esp, decide to cut his ladder before he climbed down, being jealous how Raško is brave.... they take the sister and 3 girls and return home to marry them, taking some shepherd boy named Poljko to act as youngest brother they left above... But Raško finds flying horse in the castle as well and returns incognito to his realm... During weddings he knocks out older brothers with his mace and defeat Poljko in duel with his mace. Their father, the emperor, finds out about treason of the older brothers and evict them from the realm and Raško, his wife and Bjeločka remains as only heirs of the empire and live happy ever after and whole world see that Raško is true noble one and emperor.... kraj. konjec.

admit it is at least small smile story is btw true Serbian (or Bulgarian but they don't have so much songs and stories)) medieval fairytale just i changed names for humor.... i finish, and believe me I am also touched and worried, but not that much like those under fire from any side... best wishes, hope you like it.

...must say that people from the east, our babes, esp younger. although often wrong, at least have some alive hopes, idealism or just plain philosophical or critical looks at world.... i was probably like that back in year 2000 or something, but times pass and you lose some naive ideals or hopes. We on the west are however mostly "brain dead", no philosophy or critical look at things, materialism dominates .... that's why i liked to look at them, contact them and similar but not easy to reach them, language, isolation or just mistrust due to historical reasons.... things we did in last decade, visas where we did not discriminate covering wide range of traditionally "likable" Rus' babes of ours but also countries like Georgia, Azerbaijan, Kazaks looking only for reciprocity from them etc, calling them in, trying to reestablish some old ties and calling some old relatives were positive things, proud of it... and result is visible love you lets do babies....)

anyway, to the subject. must say that checking, laughing or mistrusting, sometimes saying positive word or even catching something unknown from English wikipedia articles on our history became sort of hobby of mine... general impression is not good as I just catched too many things I dislike, but don't care that much and as i said it has positive popularization effect in some areas.... this evening i looked at what Wiki had to say about Dušan's code.... no secret I'm fan of the man in all aspects and like some ideas he incorporated in it like calling for rule of law, making it almost constitution.... but state didn't live for long, empire even less here si article but unimportant per se https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du%C5%A1an%27s_Code nor particulary great, but better than not having it..... i met it few times in life, in high school, during short time at law studies (abandoned it) when it was subject etc. so i know some things, plus his whole life...

wanted to comment this

The Code also provided more material on actual punishments; in which there is a strong Byzantine influence, with executions and mutilations frequently replacing Serbia's traditional fines

with smile because i like the sentence as it shows that sometimes when you want to copy someone "more civilized" like Romea (Byzant) was considered compared to Raška i.e. Serbia (they gave us religion, letters and many more, that's why I say...) - you actually could end up less civilized and less favorable to own feudal subjects, like in this example ...before the code some serf stealing from feudal maybe wasn't punished just fined (but dubious) and after reception of "Romean norms" it became more strict or painful etc etc ...one example of sentence i like it was included

weak point of the article is that almost 99% of content was by works of some American historian and Serb historians are quoted very rarely in article... doesn't make it bad article but mister did not understand some norms nor paragraphs nor politcal situation Dušan kingdom was at during the elevation to empire, patriarchy and code publication (Serbia had many laws even before this codification, sometimes even better as noted... and as mentioned Milutin most likely had code work of his own which didn't survive turbulent times)... where's weaknes? As I explained - just example - mister US historian and Wiki article writers did not mention reasons of many "anti-catholic" norms, paragraphs etc. and that is his clash with Angevines (house of Anjou), Avignon papacy so he tried to look "rough" and scare Angevine posesions, as Serbia of the time and rule was practically in war with all, rare thing in our medieval history... but I talked it very good before, think Angevine-Anjou clash he and Milutin had is acceptable and documented So Dušan wasn't extreme "anti-catholic" as some might conclude by norms, he just tried to scare them having clash in Greece, Hungary and Albania with them... he had catholic personal bodyguards and his sister was married to catholic, among things mentioned like Italian traders, Venetian citizenship or Sexons in mines so one of weaknesses of text and i really think Dušan deserves more modern look in 2022, more both critical and contextual new works and books and maybe including more Serbian historiography... but world will not stop without it and everyone knows by now that he was greatest (215 cm)

but article is not that bad.... like this also

Whoso escapeth from prison to the Imperial Court, be he a serf of the Crown, or of the Church, or of a nobleman, shall by the act itself be set free; should he be bearing any gifts for the man to whom he hath escaped, he shall return them to the man from whom he hath escaped.
Whoso escapeth from the prison at our Imperial Court to the patriarchal court shall be set free; also shall be set free any man who escapeth from the patriarchal prison to the Imperial Court.
Also, should any one give shelter to a man from a foreign land, and that man be a fugitive from his master or from justice holding our imperial letter of clemency, said letter shall not be contested; should he hold no such letter, he shall be returned wherefrom he hath escaped.

like how authors included archaic and de-mode English while also translating archaic Serbian church-Slavonic (shorter Scyth)) and result is nice Must say that to understand some paragraphs you have to be not only legal or history "expert" but very good at linguistics as well as old-Serbian was so fun sometimes so that much about it and this article... and what i like and dislike.... do join me, youngblood )

...."practically in war with all" except Venice and Ragusa (Dubrovnik), small correction but not unimportant one to own words... shortly political position of imperial Serbia under Dušan.

most seriously, found out some interesting thing which is in line with mine words from before, making me so smart even without knowing it before but concidence is that is just as i imagined.... namely, Dutchy of Athens (it changed ethnicity of rulers many times) was during Dušan's expansion ruled exactly by Aragonese man and that's why Serbs stopped at around Thermopylae... as i said in wider picture Aragon and Sicilian fractions were also "friendly" .... important note, didn't know but turns out as true

and again to all my readers, east or west, these are people Dule and Milutin (maybe even Dečanski but he was uncomprehensible as figure) were against: https://youtu.be/-0KuCn8Vl-s making us probably coolest medieval tribe ever (but not perfect as well) ...do look at movie or book eventually if you like medieval history, Eco was our professor

anyway, today something colors and flags in history... it is I think known that yellow or golden was our imperial color like on that banner from empire presented on some maps, so I guess some people seen it flying in imperial Serbia. So yellow as well... second example is flag i.e. possible banner used by one of the early Nemanjić rulers just without eagle i.e. aquila (one of the sons of first king, btw) and - surprise! - it includes red-blue combo, often related to only XIX c when anecdote says that Serbs took Russian colors, which is not lie (we being slaves of them))... but our old colors i.e. symbols of some kings were already red-blue and white as addition etc etc. ....Finally for fun and laugh today I add segment of king Milutin's silver dinar (denarius) which possibly even Dante held or used in some period. When you look at face representing our king - first who understood that Raška i.e. Serbia could be strong - and see his demonic face, you understand why Dante sent him to hell humoristically hope you like my posts but i need some female backup here... ; i think our films would sell great in ex-Rus' for example, and they like tall emperors and Raška ) we will do it and "conquer" them all but not forgeting social themes and female subjects they like as well and will make films about that as well and revolutions too ... our knights were very gentle, btw...

today nice subject for 8. Martius month of war god but on the contrary... female subject. well we did not have examples of very powerful women in the middle ages but many were important and part of both cultural and mercantile rising, in that sense foreign as well... like Ana Dandolo, for 50 years considered as "queen mother" and even protected by kings who weren't her sons and she lived long enough to see her son becoming (important) king... other as well etc...

But nice story I had is that two women connected to Serbian crown i.e. rulers made even traditional societies of Mount Athos, with strict rules prohibiting women entering state-complex, make exception for empress Jelena (Bulgarian, wife of Dušan) and for Mara Branković during Serb domination... so who says we are swines ....not sure about my own opinion on Mara, but unimportant and not subject - important thing is that there were many male nobility "traitors" as well among us who handed forts and cities to Ottoman-Turks without fight etc. Mara or no Mara it is 100% certain our state would be crushed by Turks year sooner or later, we were "doomed" since 1371 and Maritsa (little Mara)) safe to say... great thing and point is that we enabled strange and unusual exceptions to strict rules on Mount Athos, for 2 of our nobility women

....unrelated and unmedieval (so not my field) but since I mentioned it and mentioned east so many times recently - makes you proud not only about our Natalija Ukrajinka as first modern queen and person that forced Serbian parliament to often work better and even protect female rights, but also unrelated fact that Russian emperors who supported passionately and liked idea of Serb "colonies", inclusion in army and elite - were exactly women, Jelisaveta, Jekaterina etc. So respect to them and consider them almost as ours ...hope I said it nicely miladies and you like my stories, do contact me to elaborate further....)

look at her "krasočka" or "krasavica" isn't she.... and imagine her holding golden feather with our Samuilović (nicknamed Horvat), Preradović and Šević standing in front of her in their best armor ...cap-cap and done, she signs with smile. "Da, it shall be New Serbia" .... year later and few humdred kilometers away she signs again "Da, it shall be Slavyano-Serbia" etc.

empress Jelisaveta - Elizaveta .... greatest babe ever. Few years after her death "colonies" and trace of "Serbia" gone, but not with bad intention just because borders changed and Serbs fastly melted in but continued to live on in various places (some were killed indeed).... picture is from youth but our sources say that she was still very impressive in 1952 ...makes you proud, doesn't it if Serb, makes you jealous if not

great story for films... thanks to her again, think we should erect a monument here just for her noble idea. Nothing against locals of the time, of course... but, excuse me, so great and sexy story and women we like, so i posted just to correct myself from "mike"... it was her, greates and funniest babe, liking us. (but Ekaterina with role as well as Petar before). Many thanks for story and best wishes to my female readers again, we sometimes just regret for moving so far out of there do join...) ....sorry for the true but fun story, indeed nice one and perfect for this date as addition...

(seriously, my some "ideal" is often brown-haired, eyed with cute what I call "Russian nose" girl, but of course Jelisaveta is great)

...and to be clear, by "Russian nose" as I imagine it with sympathy - I meant very cute one, a bit pug nose, not long from eyebrows till tip end, maybe a bit wider than standard north-European ... and somehow round face, not long... and similar if you know what I mean, melts me. But there are various types, just something i like, maybe "Scythish thing" but i like you in all shapes...

yeah, Marija Terezija of Austria was cute too, unbiased.... do not know German word, but nice one, "sexy"... just she once said "she would rather die than marry Serb emperor" (just joking) and she ordered any eventual Serb to be executed if chosing our babe Jelisaveta instead ; .... so somehow we should be proud that such girls fought over our hand ...not to mention Turk girls who would never let us to anyone else etc etc

so with this I conclude this lovely subject for now. always ready to talk some details with history lovers because subject is great and I can present some details about officers and life with Cossacks and Russians etc. Funny thing is that reason for "2 Serbias" were actually mistrust and conflict among Serb officers (not military conflict though, just mistrust) and Jelisaveta and Senate actaually imagined just one "Serbia" there.... how to reflect on today times, unpolitically for us - yes we love Russia, people, girls (of course not all, not mandatory) and actually whole that Muscovite-Rus' field we originate from - and it is not about interests and money, it is our slavery and desire to be together but we understand where (sadly)) we live and are "surrounded" and that nobody will take it from our heart in the future.... sadly, many Serb, Russian, Ukrainian, Bjeločkan etc etc philosophers think that some have to ignore or even hate each of us to be "successful" and prove how modern we are ; ...but we Serboi are not so important as we also (like Bulgarians, Croats etc) have population questions to think about... my message to big babes is - do not worry, even if disappear we are still there to protect you from the another dimension and always there for you.... (Jelisaveta forever)) really wish you prosperity, strength and eventual being in same political entity once... most seriously imagine we have such babe in some "union" for us and we sit in center of the table.... i really hope i said many things properly in all posts and you understand that we wish you well, not looking for any circus or less ties.... i'm back to usual topics here in thread, but isn't that story great, serious about monument to her, would make place only more beautiful.... and so sorry for using Teutonic order during our imperial days

i plan to pause probably, and despite having no problems with typing and posting periodically, just for readers "in shadows".... but yeah I always touch some subject even in non-important way and then I think it is interesting historically to add something more ;

so "nice" and unusual thing i touched - medieval Serbia in its peak and in its final years (of so called despotism, which is Byzantine title inferior only to emperor) was in ties with German world, used Teutonic members (i conclude that after research, Palman and few hundred were 90% members of the order coming from Venice, but it doesn't make them any less loyal to "our state") Sigismund Luxemburg story and fact that our knights often took part in his campaigns, like against Hussites, some would call it anti-Slavic sometimes ...but as I said medieval states were not national nor tribal, they were elitist... in that sense, while it is fun that in times (mid XIV) when some German kings gave "green light" to Teutonic order to spread in Russia (for example) we had some possible members in our armies and it was the case all to the mid XV In the same time our ties with Russians were long before and probably not few Russian monks, people (and girls)) lived in medieval Serbia (in that sense empire too), so i really doubt any of our rulers ever had "anti-Slavic" sentiments - more likely they seen danger in Husites, some Poles, Lithuanians or pagan Russians etc.....(but liking them as people) i think it is understandable (and forgivable if you are Russian reader)) making me no less liking our medieval history... but in any way, no our knights ever took part in "eastern crusades" except against mentioned Hussites...

so i - for historical fun - already mentioned Palanok castle in west Ukraine (long Hungarian land) as north-eastern most point our knights "thundered through" in whole medieval history and if you interested in other directions.... by some documents today Czech republic would be north-western most point where our knights operated (seen some text about possible operating of Serb knights around 60 kms from Prague, but maybe fake text though I don't see any reason why would it be), but heavy knights were ineffective in those wars and we also had no significant casaulties, btw... when it comes to south-west, most likely some knights operated in Italy and as south-east "reach" Asia Minor where we sent organized units in various times (but maybe some Serb joined crusades as individual or group).... that's how it looked like geographically...

however to come back to previous subject, late Serbian medieval state was very influential (and liked) for early Russian (Muscowy) empire and state, but i think it is known subject Medieval history is fun and holds many secrets and is important not to understand it wrongly or fantastically....

...strange tribe we were, strange tribe we are.... somehow when you dive deep into details and many things often not understood well - you conclude that times change but somehow our position and some tribal doubts remain same since the our arrival from Russia in VI, VII c or as I said maybe later as distinctive tribe of "military experts".... I personally accepted theory about arrival from Russian lands 100%, so one mystery solved personally but you can think about other directions too - but fact remains that our (and Bulgarian for example) language, genetic material and many more do not match Saxon Serbs, Czech and similar... to get back to thought, where is our position same for now 1500 years - well in short we love someone else but cooperate with other, in great part comically and simplified said, but true... one thing also interesting I barely touched before is that many Serb names, medieval and later, do match that pattern often found in Ukraine and Belarus (lovely Bjeločka)) only or dominantely i.e. suffix -KO in names (now in Belarus and Ukrainian last names, while in Serbs as first names and that is where we are different than Bulgars for example which do not have many -ko names but do have as well...) so maybe another important addition to thoughts about our origin from there and many Rus' people with -ko suffix, of our mutual origin.... Ranko, Rajko, Branko, Rastko, Ratko, Vratko, Darko.... etc etc to many to mention in our history... but it doesn't matter and now we are modern and we hate everyone, including ourselves

wanted to post about this primarily, but then I talked about previous thing more extensive than intended ... I often mentioned it and many times, always sounding self-sure but the fact remains that I do not understand that thing and our ties during 2 important despots (and before but not so visible) great mystery regardless how many I know... can't comprehend how and why Sigismund didn't crush us or even try, do not understand how we were only orthodox country that took part in catholic campaigns and crusades, do not understand why orthodox lord i.e. despot Stefan was first on list in catholic ruler order and similar... even more funnier we were "heretics" to each other. Mystery in every way... I already mentioned that story about Stefan possibly personaly saving Sigismund life during one battle and his gratitude, but it doesn't "drink water" as we say, as Đurađ aka George also was in Sigismund "entorage" and awarded by him etc etc. Maybe both saved Sigi's life or maybe all our rulers since Nemanja were both catholic and orthodox ...in any way great balance by some of our rulers, for respect while never forgetting Russian lands and people as true Raška ...as I said i'm not talking about that anymore, but just correcting myself of talking very much, but rarely mentioning north east in medieval context... somehow symbolic that Russian empire collapsed in affair involving our state, as well it is symbolic that they preserved our culture (in big part), put us back on map, as well as is symbolic that early Russian emperors (among other things) liked our "empire"... not thinking only Ivan, but as mentioned much later Peter, Jelisaveta obviously fans.... not mention anymore, just addition and to add that Russian lands did exist for us even in the middle ages, not only as name Raška and point of this post is about not understanding how we took part in some actions and why they accepted our rulers. nice story anyway and I made my older posts much richer now ... we can discuss about that "nose and round face question" always in detail

...looked at some works by some Rus/Ukr/Belarussian (some would say ex-Soviets) sientist at linguists recently - sadly not whole books, just parts written in the 80s, 90s etc - namely mister Trubačjov or Trubačev and mister Martinov (not to use kirilik letters here)). And among probable 10s of words present in our Serbian (or wider S-H) which are of (old) Iranic origin and enetered old Slavic is one word we use almost daily - "hvala" meaning "thanks" and is used now exclusevily among us, S-H language field.... they say it is borrowing exactly from Scyth diaelects and we preserved it ...there are other words as well but this one is "around everyday", cool find by Russian, ex-Soviet science.

so yes I like that subject as hobby and great interest.... consider us Slavish and relatives, but nonetheless like the subject and it is cool that our historical tribe is (in name above all) that link of Scyth and Slavic world and tribes In that sense your science is precious for my hobby and whole that interesting subject which only makes us more interesting tribe, thanks.... so for those who humoristically think that we Serbs (and Croats) are some link with Vikings in Rus' lands, you are wrong and must disappoint you - as noted we are that link (and probable descendants) with Scyth world... prosperity for our eastern relatives (it is hard to think properly when you are in the news daily) and hopefully many more interesting finds and mutual ties..... including babies one collective "hvala" i.e. thanks again.

...and to add to that, relatively to very important/interesting, it depends how much you like it and how much you like history and linguistcs, tribal ties and ethno-genesis.... think everyone like it at least partly...

there are many such words and no need for me to name and elaborate every or anymore, and as I said - Rus' science and all later forms - how diplomatically i said that ) - is a key... while lingo-genesis is controversial subject and many linguistical forms are derivative forms of some very ancient languages, in our sense and our particularity it is important that we have enough evidence of eastern tribal genesis, Iranic or Persian... it is not political question nor "beauty contest", question of pure dots connecting...

so another interesting example is also word in use in Serbian (and S-H) i imediately remembered, also having different form among our Slavic relatives, most if not all of them.... and that is word "kazna" today meaning punishment - and I think we all know how it sounds in other languages of our family but many tribes, esp. east-Slavic do know or even use various forms, sometimes under our influence via Old church-Slavonic - i include Bulgaro-Macedonian this time in "our" while Serbo-Croat is distinctive and preserved a lot of "Persianisms" ; - continue sentence ) sometimes under own or other influences, important to know so there are synonyms in Russian for example and smart Russians knowing synonyms could understand us even without school as i witnessed... coming back to "kazna" it is super fun to know that it is today word with singular meaning, as said "punisment" BUT there is a trick and fun moment. Some tried to relate it to Celtic this and that, but sadly for them incorrect... my and Russian lands knowledge about middle ages helped to correct that... namely word was used in our imperial times (but probably before too) and used in form just like Rus' science and I understood - it was used as term for "treasury" also, so we had medieval titles like "kaznac" Interesting moment is that origin is probably from old-Iranian again, Median etc and is "treasury"... everyone to own conclusions - but I personally have very little to none doubts about tribal Iranic-Persian origin and migration through and from Rus' lands, again

as i said there are really tens of such words ultimately Iranic and preserved almost exclusively in Serbo-Croat dialects in whole family... some Soviet (and imperial probably) scientist had interesting term for our linguistic field i.e. "Slavic perifery with many archaic forms" for example.... great addition we sometimes totally neglected. But glad we as Serbs at least did decent job after 2000 in renewing ties... in that sense Russia, Ukraine, Belarus equally... when shirt stops hopefully we can continue where we paused, but we know nothing about anything except that we like "Lugansk monument", baby idea and respect your science and history.... best wishes again.

(oh how much i mentioned you 3 lately, hopefully i earn some medal - monument not needed - from each ...and when you add my archaic name, super match .... but last few posts only scientifically) anyone alive there? in skirt? ...anyway, glas i posted as much... and hopefully fun for other readers as well if they can follow my posts...

...to add that both Trubačjov -ov -ev (av, av)) and Martinov had education from ex Ukrainian CCP ) and second was even born there. So yeah it wasn't just "European Africa" and "land of whores" (with all due respect and many kisses, miladies) but respectable education center, hopefully will be again, that's my vision and idea and we be together ; ... btw, one died as Russian other as Belarussian scientist after 2000... recommendable and interesting if you like the subject and interested in some ancient "Serbology" though both do not reasearch about us speciafically, but if you can use brain, comparative method and deduction you can find many interesting things about old Serbs as well and is interesting in wider tribal sense... of course there are many more interesting works and scinetists from those countries, but I found things i like and can enrich my ideas here recently, that's why i mentioned those 2 specifically...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaznac

so yeah, while nothing unusual, as i said for origin of the word it is "wrongly" said it is Serbo-Croat word, citing US university and work... but if Serbian word then it wouldn't be in use in Russian as well, or maybe it would because we teached them to speak like our true baby so yes, in concrete much older and our mutual word... but not so important, just note to include eastern science and history in our works... that's our plan since Plinius (Pliny) discovered us doing some business in Russia (today) around the Vesuvius episode... our plan was to make something big, prosperous and successful out of them and we will do it... some humoristrically even say that we were initial organized tribe in that area and Slavic world, but i wouldn't go so far and accept that they gave us language and culture, while they looked at us as giants of incredible beauty wish you luck and prosperity, hope my posts are liked and are educative do join me and say something............

so by the way - it is all ligical and scientific unity and that's why am adding material wanting to be fun and educational - relatively small article about Dušan's code above mentiones thing from "mike" and something i talked much before i.e. border lands in Serb history by old dialects and elite language of the time called "krajišta" and is reason why derived term for man from that land (and some our last names) is "krajišnik" .... term "krajina" is probably of later penetration in our language and sounds better than "krajište", however we kept term "krajišnik" in modern although it could have sounded as "krajinac"..... and of course has nothing to do with modern big country north-east of us, just Serb medieval term and important function in our realm, having both high responsibility and honor and they were often penalised for penetrations or damage to feudal lands.... btw, since mentioned never understood why English term for big country of our group is "Ukraine" and not "Ukraina" which is usual pattern for countries, but doesn't matter.... so yes again - despite weak points I clearly named and mentioned for better understanding of Dušan's Anjou house policies - after reading it whole it is relatively and rarely good article there, mentioning also "collective guilt" many later armies used as justification to punish civilians, mentioning Dušan's order that "any priest, bishop, church official not feedeing the poor can be fired" etc etc but this about that linguistic particularity and why Serbs use that "krajina" word....

linguistics, especially if you spread it in comparative way and include other tribes and synomyms, is fun... more fun when used in historical approach, maybe to look at some not well explained things apolitically... But can be tricky because many of the tribes do know many synonyms and which word sometimes previaled in which tribe is coincidence or matter of dialiect... many of them are common and old Slavic, and also many only east & south Slavic only etc (as south Slavs originate from there) .... some died out during time but were used before like "tisuća" (thousand) in Serb or "rat" (war) in Russian... They told that Puškin's alleged medieval ancestor was called Ratmir, Ratša, Raša... etc... to conclude this post with names - safe to say, some today popular names penetrated our language relatively late - maybe even in that mentioned XVIII c events - like Ivan (Serb long used form Jovan), Igor (not present much in medieval Serbia) Olga, Tatjana, Tanja etc etc etc maybe even name Aleksandar penetrated in Serbian (never used in middle ages) via Russian later influence and often use so we copied them... some were common like Vladimir - saying because present, not because you think - here Zetan ruler predating rise of Raška (and present before and later) but it doesn't mean that various forms did not exist in use among common folk and that we didn't have many people i.e. commoners from there... (yes, for Croats same rules often do not apply but i'm not expert for their history...) so yes, to complement my previous posts, it is subject to be careful about as nobody can guarantee that some names "our" which today died out, were not present in Rus', Muscowy as well, and vice versa for us.... interesting one as subject so do not slip ....but again, generally we penetrated each other languages not only via Old church-Slavonics (in both ways) but because common background and I'd say we being relatively separated from west Slavic tribes, much more than other tribes of today Russian, Ukrainian and Belorussian ...including common penetrations )) we had before we moved from today Ukraine or while they flooded our lands we lived on since mesolith (but not named Serbii maybe, to be clear).... have fun and mind that talked about names in this paragraph above all....

...let's add this thing here as well

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european ... oups.shtml

...because it is important for history, to me even crucial evidence or addition to many things smart scientists from Slavic lands knew before i.e. our origin from the east and with whome we share I2 the most. But not only that it is great myth buster about old jokes about we sharing much genetics with Turks but also myth buster in other way, that millions of people in today Turkey share our origin - actually presence of south Slavic dominant group is very small do neglectable in that country so surely Turks did not take huge numbers of Serbs (in concrete) in their lands.... etc etc... many more historical things and as well not only about us - many interesting questions from continental history could be solved or improved by this DNA results ....symbiosis of Spanish and Arabs also not true, Scotland having as much Nordic and Viking dominant haplogroup as Serbia etc etc etc ... really too many to name and I hope you can answer something interesting from own history from there... final word, after millenias I am personally pleased with result of our direction, origin and most genetics from ex-Rus', lands and people I like but nothing against untrue Saxon and Czech theory, while people as people....

for fun - I am not "huge expert" on politics and "estrada" of modern Russia, Ukraine, Belarus etc. but probably know more than average person from other parts... since I mentioned her here and I didn't know personally until few weeks ago - "huggable lady" from "reklama" including our monasteries is wife of one Ukrainian politician and business person So I'd hug you very much, despite her being "persona non grata" there and with husband "pro-Rosijski" which i didn't know, though i watch many stations from that 2-3 countreis when i can ; mostly Russian, yes.... but we Serbs are open, non-secretive and dislike hiding so I thought to mention that for eventual good laugh after I learnt who she is and whose wife "I'd hug" ...as said too bad we do not have members from that countries to laugh and talk together, but this was blast after i found out... but again generally - we are just Serbs, your all papas and protectors so you are all welcome to look at Studenica and bath in our dirty rivers and to be friends and lovers and wives, once things normalize and anytime... of course that 3 countries are of our special care and "market" though we do not aim much at tourism not having "medieval castles" nor sea. Only those hating us are not welcome but they wouldn't come anyway... isn't it nice that more Russians or Ukrainians come to take some pic from our medieval monuments and heritage than Poles so you understand why we have special ties..... so this was fun, never mentioned how I laughed after knowing who lasy is. (and huggable as well)

......so what are some true Serb names, if existing at all? well, common old Slavic those ending with -slav and -mir mostly, but generally and more detailed some "Serb" anything related with Vuk (wolf) maybe names well known in elite like Dušan, Nemanja, Milutin etc. very rare among any other tribe but also some very strange (with maybe Scythis tone) like Pribac, Mrnjan, Hrelja etc.... but again we share many people of common heritage and there was migration in both ways in many epochs (even I do not know how many people in today Ukraine and Russia were included in their ranks and are of our origin... i can conclude that many our last names are east-Slavic as well...)

so yes, while my "new things" days are over, want to share this... not because it is something new or crucial but merely interesting on subject I touched upon in very serious, investigative way... being medieval detective is fun, you can try with any historical era you like use your brain and not sources and others books, simply said. Not so important, except for Serbian medieval history lovers (there were some even in England or beyond, so to anyone). After some investigation and contacts, some rounding up for now on Maritsa/Evros battle - for me personally probably most decisive in our history of the period and (loosely speeking, but hardly considering Serb and Turk/Ottoman manpower and population of the time) one that could change history with different outcome, but again hardly - it is biology and numbers... so, just some possibilities and something to widen one's knowledge...

consulted except some Turk tales, Greeks and Bulgarians. except things I talked about, like possibility that king Vukašin survived the battle and was killed during retreat - maybe even in clash among Serbs themselves due to missplease of the outcome or even by Bulgarians (everything is on table, even his death in battle before, so just chance) and except chance that main clash actually happened even further north-east of Adrianopole/Edirne on fields where possibly one part of Serb (and maybe Greek-Bulgarian auxies) cavalry met some Ottoman reinforcements etc. Already talked and mapped that, plus fact that Turk village and area named "Serb destruction" is 10s of kms away from river... except that, interesting is that there is maybe even slight chance that Serb forces actually included forces under our emperor Uroš "the weak" and it is only curious that he died the same year as probable battle, but no indications that he actually took part in battle, led by 99% certainity Vukašin and brother Uglješa (another rare and possibly Serb un-common Slavic name, since mentioned before). So yes, since he (car Uroš) had solid relations with Vukašin maybe he sent forces while he stayed on court... we do not have any indications that any other of big Serb nobles ruling Moravian Serbia, Kosovo and Montenegro (today), Hercegovina sent forces and supported them... further, by Greeks it is quite possible that years "we know" are wrong and that Adrianople wasn't in Turkish possesion at all and even less Ottoman capital at the time of the actual battle and Vukašin's death. So, if true, whole story about Serb attack on "Ottoman capital" maybe wasn't true and only indirectly could explain why is field and village with name away from today Edirne, and eventual illogical movement by Serb forces if there was indeed battle north-east... some Greek chronicles talked about area of Ormenio being flooded that year (not unusual) so still good place for trap and push into water, albeit maybe only part of army.... and so on, smaller and less important details, but generally still interesting historical subject and actual "gift", due to bad sources like Kosovo battle, for detective mind and further investigation...

story by Otttomans that actually Hungarian king and many catholics took part and even subordinated them to Serbian crown (that's why Turks remembered it folklorally as "Sirpsindigi") we all reject, while it is not impossible that it was total mixup with some later events when Serbia almost disappeared etc. If any document or mention in Bulgaria, Greece or Turkey surfaces I'll add. Interesting subject generally and as said it is not bad that our sources are so bad or ruined forever as it leaves a lot of space and chance for new investigations and hypothesis about "how our medieval history actually was" (I think personally much richer and eventful, unkonown than believed) what happened and what role our rulers had (and how much in Swiss banks))... finally for now, again it is not surprising that exactlly that battle and event interested even people like Brian Aldiss, without any relation to it and our medievalism... again, mere summarisation of things about battle - I think at least we can trust "our sources" that it happened in 1371, because Vukašin died then - in it or not ;

a bit more, while i'm "in form" and close to subject.... numbers, numbers, numbers always funny subject. Again, if you like period and ever read anything, take them with suspicion and absolute suspicion, not relative... while we reached might and huge ermpire from Macedonia to Greece and managed really "heroic things" much greater tribes did not (not talking about Tamerlane prise for example, Turk respect in some instances or fact that once powerful Romean empire known as Byzant payed tribute at times - but also things like managing into Dante's work, fra Mauro map as rich or French chronicles as "richest of all Europe") of course our real numbers certainly do not match one found in sources and again I repeat to all interested that hardly ever in our medieval times 50,000 troops marched behind any Serb banner... beside as migratory tribe atested in Asia i.e. Russia of course it is questionable how many of our ruler/nobles were indeed Serbs and how many others we ruled, but unimportant today and it makes that period from our prospective even more "glorious" because we weren't just force but "successful economy" which revived old Roman minery in region for the first time since fall of Rome. That's also solid success but of course i write with dose of humor as medievalist, people not to glorify feudal system as just or "national"... it is just interesting.

now, back to what i wanted to add... Car/emperor Uroš is one of (indeed many) enigmatic figures of ours from the time... little substantial is sadly known, so some jokes persist including sexual orientation In any way, nothing "cool" compared to some like Milutin or Dušan, Nemanja, Stefan or George B... so he is totally in the shadow, I'd say after doing some research deservedly, just like he was in shadow of people like powerful Vukašin, Lazar, Vuk and others in Serbian "empire" after fragmentation.... however - must be considered that he was given nickname "the weak" as he had "huge shoes to fill" and often compared to father, car Dušan - man not even by ambition but also phisically one in millenia, free to say (for small tribe)... there is one game of words in actual nickname he was given by folks or contemporary nobles. Namely, translation like every translation ruined true sense of his nickname in Serbian. Namely 2, he was "nejaki" while Serbs then and now had word "slab" for "the weak" as well. "Nejaki" in fact means "non-strong" and that is that trick and word-play, indicating again comparison to his father and him being then "non-strong" while nothing is sure that man did not have some energy, personality and maybe even good fighter (or he might be overthrown which happened few times in Nemanjić era) that to be clear... He commanded imperial forces (separate from feudal ones, for those who never had country as empire in history)), maybe he was in mother's shadow, maybe Vukašin's and Uglješa's indeed, maybe weak indeed etc etc but know that father was "mighty". Reality and mentality was division - it is not true that it happened only in his times as even small Serbia before experienced few "civil wars" starting with Namanja sons etc - and reality is that for example Lazar's or Vuk's income and power was way beyond that of emperor Uroš and his funds...

also years always with doubt, maybe continentally but for us especially except some well-known.... one fast example before I go - allegedly Vukašin's birth year is circa 1320 while some frescoes show him as notceably older man, indeed. If he died in 51 year of life he wouldn't look like that possibly and would still realtively "in peak" of strength considering how much medieval elite trained etc.... also we do not even know that Mrnjava "kaznac" (I was kind to explain that word for you before)) of queen from the second half of previous century (which wasn't even "Anjou" at all, maybe just French dancer from taverna)) was indeed same Mrnjava or Mrnjan, his father - maybe not at all... that much about our bad sources, but still cool history and "retreat from scene" for few centuries. Now i think that last few paragraphs are in complete agreement with how Bombast named the thread, hopefully interesting as ever... as always, as I go, anyone having something unusual or "second/third" look at quasi-known events welcome ; humor aside, some interesting and many serious things there if you appreciate Serbian med history....

want to actually add this, wanted yesterday but thought was it is not so important... finally read some interesting documents and works about longer dimplomatic correspondence between Dušan and Venice, but also his meetings with papal envoy (who is also catholic saint, so relatively important figure) Peter i.e. Pierre Thomas, he was French like many church officials during Avignon papacy... very fun material but sadly i didn't see anything documented about that, just paraphrasing of their meetings and "hear-say"... do not even know if documents and tanscripts exists (well that's for profies) in papal archives, but even if not - lost importance as well as subject... Peter/Pierre was actually already name in Avignon curia and had dimplomatic missions (although also unsuccessful) with such European powers like Venice and Genova, before he was sent to Serbia to meet our ruler and elite. Later he also had missions and role in Constantinople, Levant, Cyprus - short bio, when it comes to sainthood it is one of the old ones, for miracles, events in the east etc. etc. Somebody not to think it has anything to do with Dušan and his missions here...

nothing to say and as said it is "hearsay" about meetings and maybe not true, but laughed about it. There was sharp contrast (again) in Dušan's posture and mannerism towards Venice and Avignon and indirectly (or very directly indeed) Angevins/Anjou house. Touching even unexpected daring, considering that it could bring him crusade or war with one of the most powerful houses at the time... but he was already in war with them via Hungarian king and in Greece and Albania, but hopefuly tried to avoid anathema and crusade by Catholic church ; ...and that's why laugh and telling this as anecdote and how "frindly it started" and how it ended with Peter Thomas being "red as pepper or tomato" and couldn't forget talks for days and eventually left Serbia wanting to meet Louis of Hungary (Angevine) instantly and to say him "just to continue war with Serbia with vigor". Dušan as well was furious about that and that is when he almost only time wanted to "do swords" with his bodyguard Palman, because they joined preaching held by Peter... very movie like scenes, both talks with Peter and clash with Palman ; ..... to round this subject as well - not important what Umberto Eco or me or anyone think and how we imagine Avignon officials (they and Angevins had "troubles" with many rulers and maybe Franciscan order, so I mentioned Vitto, franciscan maybe not only in Serbia, and maybe not by chance) and how we judge whole events, but must conclude that clash Milutin and Dušan had with Avignon and Anjou was very, very daring - wars with Turks were inevitable, wars with Bzyant this and that or this for that, but open clashes and even taking cities from Anjou and being disliked by French papacy simply daring, and maybe "coolest" event in our short "peak", with continental "schmeck" ....thought to add althought I also (my impression is) talked it in understandable way, so i want to repeat that it is not to be considered as purely orthodox-catholic thing or tension as it was deeply territorial in the background and expanding Serbia probably looked to take all French posessions on the peninsula, king Milutin captured Drač etc. However, some indications are that relations with previous and last Italian pope had upeards and friendly tendencies - so I put as theory that maybe Serbia (although uncatholic itself) maybe belonged to the camp of those countries which was displeased by moving of papacy from Italy and all consequences... so maybe, just maybe we played some role in that and there is some tie (brother of bishop of Treviso from where last Italian pope was IIRC was in Milutin's service, interesting find by Italian archeos)

... yeah I like the subjects, was always my passion, since i was kid

regarding power of Anjou, mind that even English kings were "Anjou" as it is closely related to Plantagenets (and from same region i.e. Anjou) and that all French dynasties are related, and Valois and Anjou cadet branches of Capetians etc. Richard (from cartoons and story of Robin Hood) was also "Anjou" and they had strong/partial relations with Spanish crowns etc etc ... so type of people our rulers "kicked beetwen legs" ; ...nice story again and I'm grateful to Turks for not arriving a century earlier as we (and me) would be left without such nice stories and hobby probably... of course I added this about French/English rulers and dynasty relations in symplified way and mainly for some eventual younger reader from region not knowing details, so excuse if I simplified it too much for those very serious western genealogists but yes basically, having trouble with Anjou is having trouble with 70% of Europe then and doing it without any ally as well - that's ground for my suspicion that maybe some talks with some Italians did exsists, maybe with Aragonese and similar, Germans are atested... again, simply to bold for Serbia alone....

yeah and I forgot to add that "Drač" i mentioned is Durazzo in Albania, Durres - they say it was one of the very fortified and that Milutin captured it just for "show" just like he reached Agean coast for show, without any longterm ambitions like Dušan. But as said sources are sources, they may differ - maybe he was forced out or there was something 3rd behind brief actions of his... since we have little knowledge and material evidence (almost like we didn't have medieval period except in stories) must add i don't know nothing about how our siege technics and "mashinery" looked like, as few more fortified cities fell during those events.

anyway and alas, was reading about French in hope to maybe make some conclusion about our queen Jelena/Hellen and found that Halpen is French name i.e. last name in variants so i remembered our noble Hlapen, also one of specualtive origin... it is in our language practice to misplace letters, esp. since Hlapen is easier for "Serb tongue" to say than Halpen - Halfen... this is just for fun, i personally have many doubts about some names like our Bran (Branus in sources), Baldovin, maybe Hlapen, Altoman etc and I just theoritize considering significant French presence in region before Nemanjić rise... even Fulks from Anjou exactly sound similar to our Vuks but that's already joke...

to add also, since newer historians of ours have partly tend to rename Đurađ (George) Branković to prbably proper (if they seen it in sources) form George Vuković - as it was Serb norm to include fathers name as last name for person. Well, i wonder how Lazar never followed that convention and was known by longer standing family last name, not fathers derivate... never thought deeply about it, maybe he didn't like father or father wasn't "rememberable" or was it to complex for Serbs to make proper sounding name out of his father's unusual Pribac ; ...Lazar Pribacić. In any way sounds easier for some English speaking foreigners than Hrebeljanović ...always invited to put theory from your country, i'm currently in phase when just adding more for fun than belief that forum needs it, but mostly over..... ...when i think about it, it is alright as mostly unknown.... i joked to foreigners - "how many troops were on English side in some xxx battle during 100 years war?" .... "and now how many troops Turks say was on Serb side on Maritsa (or quasi in Dušan's imperial army)? 80,000 mmm 70,000?" "now who was greater power?" ............. have fun.

so yes, lets add for historical interests.... found some text or mentions of "Serbian trebuchets" during those days, probably - since money wasn't problem - large or common counterweight trebuchets used in those days... also maybe some odd ballistasts, teamed with siege towers now and then. So generally common and usual things esp. for "economically able" feudal lands medieval Serbia of the late period supposedly was ; ... to add that during Dušan it is known that we had at least 5+ Venetian galleys armed with siege engines (battleship of the time) and often forgotten, but it did exist, less important but present fleet of smaller "hybrid" ships Serbs used, although never was naval power nor presence as country... AND last but maybe most noticeable is that our miners and engineers - possibly Saxons as well - which had fame all to Spain and is force Mehmed "the conqueror" explicitely demanded from Serbia for a siege of Constantinople more than century later... so, all in summ, maybe this last mention was the main "special weapon" of siege in late med Serbia, as conclusion...

that's how it looked like and our "machinery"... as always to me interesting and film-like, just sorry Dušan didn't live enough to try (allegedly) Constantinople siege - would be great for films to sell and profit in huge area from Bulgaria to Hungary have fun, hopefully worth historical addition on that, and mind again that I talked about our "machines" at peak during Milutin and empire... strangely enough maybe from today perspective it seems and indicates that Rascia/Serbia had very modern army, coupled with mercs, during whole times, gunpowder was also used here relaitively soon and there is story of small cannons making us among pioneers - however all together, tribe size and manpower into consideration, bad geographical position and small population (with tribe "hearth" in Zetan, today Montenegro hills) unabled us to become much more noticeable and longer lived as state.... I'll come back only if somethoing interesting.

....after all, why wasting so many words on language which is not even my natural when as said before Byzantion/Romea was very advanced state with 1000 years of history and they preserved also short video of those events and how Serb siege looked like.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXC-jJhFaUI

i like good laugh so this in that area to add to previous video Byzantines preserved about our emperor speech around southern border... do not mind good laugh and hope it is funny. Blond civilians are of course Greeks as ateseted by later found sources where it is confirmed that Greek heroes looked strangely similar to Brad Pitt while our soldiers and German mercenaries are clearly recognizable on the video.... again don't mind my videos (from Byzant archives) but admit they are funny... btw, always wanted either Vangelis or Morricone as themes for my movies, but late now so to mention that recent passing and name, compatibile for my themes...

to most seriously conclude something else... I already talked enough about it and went as far to call Venice our medieval "mama" but not far fom truth... even though they did not want to support Dušan openly, fact that he almost reported regularly to them and fact that they gave him citizenship in height of conquest, so show some quiet support and "blessing" we had through whole middle ages from that state, which is cool although - realisticaly - Venice wasn't even republic nor "good guys" as they traded slaves and so on.... (as well as Byzant to be true, so our "orthodox pals" weren't "good guys" as well....) ... but Venice is "cool", globally recognizable city and is, in historical terms, flattering that our first queen (as Rascia) was from very famous and recognizable family of Venice... not to mention party first king and her had in the city... Along with chance that Dante maybe in some shorter or longer period indeed went to supermarket in centrl Italy and paid with "Serb dinar" - to me 2 most cute stories we are involved in in that time... again as specualtion, wouldn't be very surprised that much more Italians fough "for Rascia" than even presumed and that they were very present in our empire - after all most likely operating their galleys alone required Italians/Venetians as well etc etc - joked before that maybe famous "Catalans" maybe were some Italians here..... for Italians esp. Venice we were good "ally" and counter balance to others they "didn't like" in region like Byzant or kingdom of Hungary, but Dušan's growth surprised even them so they failed to do open support and had they own calcualtions in Albania, Adriatic coast... as conclusion again i am free to say that without Venetians we would not have whole story... history of Venice is similar - but more glamorous - to kingdom of "Rascia" - we both were Byzants, vassals, allies at times and someone who tried to conquest or marginalize them

contacted some French historian/genealogist about queen Helen i.e. Jelena "of Anjou" - he, maybe being "proud French" belongs to the camp of those - after looking at her sadly speculative line - who believe that our much later sources did not lie about her "being French", even more he believed making traces with "Neapolians" that indeed paternaly he was exactly Angevine i.e. directly from region Anjou and Angers.... not enough evidence sadly and is speculative without clear paper or lineage, but also would be interesting if could be true... would make Milutin, Dušan respectively half or 8% Angevine and French as well again speculation from French younger historian... not so important, but if Dušan managed to marrz Habsburg princess would be fun, and our rulers would unite 3 very famous families Dandolo, Anjou and Habsburgs in themselves in our, after all, short kingdom history.... but linages, "aristocracy" and names are not my medieval field and to be honest not important at all to me nor I recognize "nobility" that much, I like that economical and military aspect of Nemnjić era and political events...

finally one thing that could support "my theory" about Serb inversions of name Hlapen - remember name Paul which in us sounds Pavle and for many Slavic tribes (and others) Pavel. so indeed Serb tongue is very likely to combine "hl" like in Hlapen or "vl" like in Pavle instead of separating them with sound.... have fun

.... slavery, as i touched subject, despite proclaimed high influence od church was present in our realm through whole middle ages from early states based in today Montenegro till the peak and empire... but never massive nor instutional, nor there was any trade in our country... mention is clear after Serbs defeated invasion by Bulgarian khan Boris "the great" and captured his sons, as peace deal "slaves were exchanged i.e. gifted along hawks, dogs i.e. hunds etc"... in empire Code(x) mentions it and documents by high Dušan's officials with his seals mention exsisting practice of "slave gifts" to big feuds, church feuds as well... but for us those numbers are likely in hundreds rather than any more and marginal for any social/historical research.... so maybe logical question is - whome Serbs enslaved and gifted around - well as obviously either Scyths or Triballii themselves - Serb slaves were Slavic people .... jokes aside, Triballii are Thracian tribe and Byzantines often liked to call Serbs that way, not with any good intention rather than showing their warlike nature and "ferocity"... interestingly - and i think i talked it also here, but is always interesting almost "ancient" subject - not early Byzantine sources, more frequent use of Triballii for Serbs comes with XII century and obvious intention of Serbs to "grow" and expand.... early Byzant emperors and DAI explicitely and "knowledgeably" talks about Serbs as tribe moving either from (today) Ukraine or Saxony, hence Byzantines knew very well the tribe, name and "who is current foe"...

also like ancient history, but was never expert on regional one, facing more through life Roman issues and also like since recent Persia (old home of Serbo-Croats))... graduated high school with "Roman expansion in Italian peninsula" and even then showed some unusual conclusions and doubted some historians.... not the point, wanted to present those guys... didn't know they were so "important" and there is separate English-wiki page on them when i mentioned them few times. For quiz and i guess many would never guess - but that would not be question in your quiz anyway - who founded capital of Serbia and maybe unexpected answer is Celts/Gauls, namely Scordiscii

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

so maybe just maybe and more fun - since they pushed Thracians from central Serbia i.e. Moravian valley and since some places here preserved "Celtic tone" in names those are peoples who left some deeper trace on psyche even after Roman conquest and later Serb settlement.... no small coincidence about high traditions of "vampirism" in central Serbia and northern Kosovo and, of course, no small coincidence that exactly Lazar "the horny one" (with horns on helmet) was Serb lord of Moravian/central Serbia and Ibar valley.... maybe some late sign of respect or desire for ceremonial message often used by (atested) Celtic people, knowing that fate is not peace.... but horns as horns not unique, location where they organized state, migratorial nature and small in numbers Serb tribe, words like Ibar and 10s of others (even Tara is specualtive, Scoder, Scodrus etc etc but mind that they did not go much south as organization than Morava valley)... more likely to show that Byzantines were even distantly right to "smell" something later DNA findings confirmed - Serbs menaged to "subjugate" or "tribalize" (iniciate in tribe) large proportions of more ancient peoples in the area... by concidence it was place of stronger Celtic concentration.... and like of "strong spirits" Gauls were always "badass" considering their fight against empires and both Greeks and Romans, later Serbs also disliked empires (except their own))... have fun, more wanted to present the tribe as city founders here than to make serious scientific conclusions, regarding DNA "Celtic and western European" is at us bellow 20% while much more older "I" dominates (we concluded that subject many times)... but it doesn't negate cultural or folk-traditional influence.... how we won in the end i don't know, blame it on the tallest emperor ever

...it really is strange - i finish with this post as have no special event to talk about - how, when you open map of IX or X century and look at Bulgarian state and Serb lordships how - just one example not only in region - today Serbs ended up as numerically bigger nation than Bulgars (considering Bosnian Serbs and all other)... and so on and on, some population issues were something that always amazed me, hence my previous thought.... we never had some significant natality - even those who had "fame" for high natality ended smaller today, like Albanians - not some "super culture" to attract all, and even some Serb lands (like Moravian region, Kosovo) were even depopulated few times, even more giving to the enigma... but it is how it is, Bulgars and Albanians just example and is small mystery admittedably, historically how we Serbs (with base in tiny Montenegro) managed...

joked with Bulgarians many time (rarely mentioned Bulgaria but it was important prior to our rise, but my interest is mainly high and late middle ages when we reached peak with better armor, not because Bulgaria did not exsist) and I am also of the opinion about them like us, numbers wise and Hungarians.... maybe small inflation and even that few stories that Bulgar emperors struggled with Serbs or Croats in few battles maybe indicative that Byzant, Bulgars, Serbs maybe inflated true numbers.... but not crucial today, though i belong to camp of more modern lookers at events believing that Blakan peniunsula was ever much smaller base of population than Anatolia i.e. Asia minor - or England for that matter and unresalistic - plus all those dounting even numbers in western sources i.e. putting them under check... there is always that motiv in Bulgarian historigraphy also, even i mentioned it btw about if "united or bigger state" it would stop Ottomans etc etc .... but they (Turks) faced very big armies (like one led by Sigismund) yet again they prevailed not only strategically, but also tactically end even if pushed back or faced draw (like in Kosovo when Murad or Murat died), they reorganized... of course they drafted a lot for army from local Greeks, Bulgars and later even Serbs etc. but small respect to Turk ability to do it, on place. I am very interested but sadly we will never know and sources lack - but it seems that in clashes with us they have some clear tactics or maneuver against our (very) heavy cavalry charge of high/late middle ages... since Dušan, when Turks as allies of Byzantine noble Kantakouzenos, faced in almost every battle our cavalry they manged to withstand or rout (even if cavalry itself did not suffer losses). Sadly, we do not know how....

lastly I think really, small idea and conclusion on mercenaries. We were obvious hub and place with a lot of them, colorful by nationality but I believe Italians dominated.... They somehow and deservedly as there were all sort of "maniacs" have bad voice and fame... as small sign of respect, those fighting for us were never recorded as very violent and had even very honorable role, very long and loyal service to person and not money and papal mention like Palman(us), that man from Treviso was kind enough to put on his grave that he was very happy to be knighted by Milutin, some French in our service were also writers and solid sources on events, some honest ex-Templars or Hospitalers with families here... just not to equate word "merc" with "maniac" or man without honor.... English were always hooligans ... mostly finish in this block ;

Ale wrote: ↑2022-06-02 14:52, Thursday ... maybe small inflation and even that few stories that Bulgar emperors struggled with Serbs or Croats in few battles maybe indicative that Byzant, Bulgars, Serbs maybe inflated true numbers....

Returning to the five piece work on Portuguese military history mentioned on post 1, in Volume 1, the one on medieval times, it is said that often numbers on armies, when at all found in documents don't seem reasonable. They seem to tend to diminish Portuguese figures and enlarge the enemy's, particularly when it comes to Muslim armies.
If we are less and they are more we're only bigger heroes...

We have a sort of exception, albeit somehow late in the period and concerning a specific unit, not an entire army.
I'm talking about the first Portuguese military unit that can be considered regular, the "besteiros do conto"
In English it's something like "crossbowmen of the account".
Of the account because they were accounted for, registered, hence we know more of them than the average for the time.
They were local militias raised from established recruitment zones that could relate to cities or other diverse administrative entities; for instance military orders could be required to provide some men.
Recruitment was local but they answered to the king only, received payment and trained every Sunday.
The biggest detachment was the city of Lisbon's with 300 men, some recruitment areas were required to provide a single crossbowmen,
National total came near the 5000 mark according to a 1421 enrollment
In late XIV century there was also a "besteiros de cavalo" unit.
That is "crossbowmen on horse". Strength: 500.

great and valuable, though distant... now do some calcs (any reader not you) with numbers often mentioned here... no need to go to Maritsa eternally, just imagine where would Dušan rise 80,000... there were some calculations and - while i think i finished it and nobody serious believes in some numbers - to add as possibility that (probably greatest mercenary concentration in our history though again undocumented) he, "as car", summed up to 3000-4000 mercs at most (still significant number for Balkan peninsula) ... and now make own conclusions how much Serb armies alone could have... Dušan principal base was Zeta (Monetengro) from where he strarted though later most Serb lords stood on his side.... still could it be possible to be more than 15-20,000.... Lazar at 10-12. Vukašin ruler of Macedonia, even less.... and even those are all maxed numbers... indeed presence of mercs always ruin the calculation, but our mines weren't exactly India or Solomon's .... anyway, that is i think clear and btw, people now see why we fill inferior to talk about medieval issues when we lack clear sources and chronicles, much easier for western Europe (Byzant only exception, but questionable)

btw, since here... do not want to too diminish role and achievements of early rulers like Charlemagne (our common word "kralj" i.e. "king" is allegedly based on hos name) or Bulgarians, but it was much harder to expand as time progressed... forts bigger, knights and armies better trained and with increasing armor etc. Just compare size and thickness of "early Serb capital" i.e. Ras fort and last medieval capital and walls of Smederevo... for point or example

when I said "open the map of some century" in first sentence of last post well i didn't think something like this... non-official Wiki material and probably not used on any article but is funny... 1370 wasn't year of such Bulgarian state and is year of Serb empire... so there was always some rivalry (in history until ww2, not today as we are not so "interesting" to each other any more) and lots of humor among Bulgars and Serbs... famuos chetnik song and "anthem" (not bad as military tune and nothing to do with ww2, but if you like modern history) was written as pro-Serb and pro-Bulgarian irregulars clashed in some village in early XX c Macedonia... pro-Serb commander was nicknamed Babunski and Bulgarians made lots of memes with famous monkey species and humoristic texts "Serb guerrilla commanders" etc ....so I take this pic i found just by coincidence as joke in such contexts ; ..... however Dušan's wife was Bulgarian - and very sexy they say - liked Venice more than husband's wars and was allegedly first female to enter monk state of Mount Athos, significant women. ...but last empire before Turks was ours and in 1370 "pink" was ruled by Serb not Bulgar nobles (except Bulgaria itself)... have fun, i am over if anyone catched something new, worth spent time, don't mind humor for us all is funny... i just like high/late meds didn't want to bore nor i think my subjects are important ; maybe i come back to put pic of some church, like one of Helen "of Anjou", as French person was interested to see it, or one by her husband, but not now.... and not so important after all (i've already put pics so not place....) Except that her husbands have for us rare tower attached (Sopoćani) .... as for Bulgarian readers - greatest empire in history! ... after Uroš "the weak" ;| have fun ...... thanks for reading, Bombast et all I like "Iberia" and women "mentality" - and is strange that very important river around many sacrificial i.e. religious objects of our state are around river "Ibar" here... not so much related to Portugal i know but do not mind)) hence you have that "gal" in name and "gal" is our city founder..... ;

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... n_1370.png

Ale wrote: ↑2022-06-03 17:10, Friday .. not so much related to Portugal i know but do not mind)) hence you have that "gal" in name and "gal" is our city founder..... ;

There is no total agreement around here about the origin of the name.
Most popular version talks of "Portu(s Lo)cale" meaning "port's place", being in its origin.
An allusion to a fluvial port that existed opposite a town near the mouth of river Douro.
Eventually the port became the city of Porto, second only to Lisbon in population, as communities on the other bank became suburbs.