history & modernity, my historical notes

[Ale]

one thing indeed, correction... i clearly remember when i talked about Jean le Bon (Bonbon)) the French king so famously arrested by Edward, English etc, that it was huge shame for king and that none of our kings from that Nemanide line never had such "trouble", well... often talk from head, there are so amny stories to remeber every detail ;

so yeas, Ursus Urosh Urosio had that trouble near the end of reign as he was, by story, captured by "Hungarians" (Hungary is subject for itself and since royal lines and foreign cliques changed so much, they had many factions really through whole our peak, it is hard to tell who were "Hungarians" really)) but let's say Hungarians and had to ransom himself from captivity... Making him only Nemanjić under arrest by foreign force in those days... some were captured by own sons, brothers and so on (run to foreigners before Urosh) but this was great shame, accelerating his fall he was still 50+ when Draguten, Hungarian player took over... Ana, our beauty, was long dead by then to see this "shame"... Urosh is often remembered by some successful episodes, long rule and rise, but indeed he had this (for kings) shameful episode ;

i talked a lot, but in case if some contuores not clear, Miluten and Dusciano were more players who played some "Venetian and Italian card", respected Urosh (hence Dushan gave such name to quasi only son) and similar, and own game of course... Plus, they were often targets of let's say "dirty games" and "propaganda" in a small and unimportant way in local and wider European factions - for example many times our pretendets and "young kings" captured family or overthrew fathers (often they died soon after) but propaganda was aimed at Dusciano as (lie) killing father, at Miluten as quasi blinding son (Deschanski, was so able and nice story to impress noblity) and similar, targeted "small attacks" on those two, we would say today.... Miluten, Dushan, Urosh I and Ana Dondolo, arguably or without argument central figures and almost positive in our history of era... it was some wider struggle, they pushed for current that ultimately made us both closer to some and in themselves almost incorporatted few important families/states of medieval Europe... without any romticism of course, they had own plans and skills... And you must understand that Ana, such girl and beauty, lived 30 years without husband so of course with such charm and Venetian kink.... hahaa. Respect to her. this is the end but you always join an tell which fav historical figure would you like to kiss

[Ale]

....aaand - we are trying to reconstruct some things here, let's say realtively interesting for older history lovers - so aand to say this: English language wiki page on Urosh clearly says that he had not only French wife of "major importance", but that he also had contacts with French rulers, even maybe planning to take common military action, it also has nice line that his French wife was influntial in some decisions, like "wrestling" with Ragusa/Dubrovnik. So solid relations with French... further, Miluten - we can't say how deep or consistent were his relations with French crown BUT I talked a lot even with some daring date comparisons, so we have some dates that cast some doubt, we can speculate about "cold-warm" relations with French crown (direct one i.e. Capetians). So let's "reconstruct" it as neutral or unknown.... further and last, Dushan maybe had bad relations with Avignon and 100% sure with local Anjou branches, above all Southern Italy and Hungary - but he kept his line open till his dying year and talked clearly to French, wasn't hostility that's for sure... last two talked, interesting addition on Urosh I

really some reconstruction of events that are of continental interest so to say, to me as well in investigative form... why France, again to see how present were really some ties as i called trio "Veneto-Italian" players and France was the main power that also spread minor branches around, so here we are kinda reconstructing relations with French crown and Avignon... hopefully liked as always even if short as always, generally this is not so local subject indeed even if old ... you all know that in our case we are looking constantly for some facts as indeed we couldn't reconstruct whole story till today ; but finish with this... "interevened" just to level that "Venetian players" statemet which is true as well as our incredible ove for Italian principessas, but of course to touch ties with our "lilies of Angers", how could they have looked like in lack of (cold winters) sources ...as i said, despite lack of any reaction, stories are nice and great pleasure in puzzling it out, taken as you like some conclusions as well ) ...or more educational to any reader, but always join...

[Ale]

...and (wiki page in English) had conflicting or inconsistent statements about his final years (Urosh I) of rule i.e. in one version do not mention any capture by Hungarians in other paragraph yes ; ...something similar is about Miluten and other pages, often contradictory/incosistent paragraphs etc onsame page but as i said that's is fun part for us medievalist or all old history interesents, puzzles ; ...so when was he really captured (for example) or not by Hungarians is if take this unimportant example, absolutely not sure... many such examples.

anyway, let's touch a bit Elena Gattilusio today, our beauty and principessa everybody liked (I was young personally but so beautiful))... think i talked that only on ex-forum so to transfer it here, just short, that story... she was by only one source, of Stefan L. biographer, chosen as wife and encouraged by Francesco II (allegedly he was so impressed by stefan that he offered any daughter etc) after his visit to Constantinople after he was given despot title etc. and they married later, by story... since that is only mention of her and there is no other source, later mention nor picture of her, it remains as mystery. So our and foreign historians speculated in various ways, some saying that marriage was never finished or she did not move (their lands, Gattilusio family, were also under huge pressure and father died in freak incident etc so their sources also did not survive) and similar speculations... We can't say for sure but why would same biographer just mention it and then not adding that she did not come or something like that, or any reason that kept him to mention annulation or similar if you understand... in those times also such important ruler would certainly find another wife soon and then she would be mentioned. So personally hard to accept as "ghost principessa" or if she died soon after, other woman would be mentioned later as we are talking de facto Serbian kinf of the time... so small mistery if not so important, but to mention what we look at in case of beauty Elena...

interesting is fact, that Stefan - if we add something else to speculations - was one of rare rulers in shorter wars with Venice and that is where things get "interesting" if we consider Elena and power/charm of foreign ladies with our rulers... ; she was from Genoese family, maybe Venetians reacted on news and similar ; after Stefan's death George "golden fork" restored traditional good ties and diplomatic dialogue with Venice, characteristic for almost whole 250 years etc. Just speculations and giving Elena some possible presence, in generally unimportant way, but her story is unusual - more in way that Stefan would surely find another wife to be mentioned - even if disliking them he would do that due to position....

also, for end, sources are simply not trustable, everyone knows that but another example that often went through my head, if we are to talk a bit about women... short, that Habsburg princess Dushan wanted to marry... undoubtedly would be significant move if realized and (let's say) huge blow to Dushan's rivals, maybe even Anjou branches for example again (again we had no open war with Anjou and cooped well)... so she died quasi of fear, but that is just story... if we are to get suspicious, could have been murder by someone who had seen "disbalance" in such marriage etc etc. Generally, maybe agreeable, very suspicious story... i don't know all this more like talking about women that shaped some events, our principessas ) or not, or almost ; ...it sounds almost nice, if romantic, how some foreign women influenced our political events and really our men, nice one... so if we take queen 'Elen of Caroling shouldn't be understood automatically that she was for "war" by simple sentence - she as French lady, as well as Ana Dandolo before, had more "mercantile mind" and knew more about some practices in Venice or France, so for example she had seen danger in very bad commercial deals Rascia had with Ragusa before her etc etc.

[Ale]

...from same source i.e. Avignon "top secret" files only this conversation survived between Stefan & brothers Gattilusio, dater year of our lord 1412:

Dorino Gattilusio: "So Elena went shopping to Bohemia again?.... Stefano, you are family, we all like and respect your late papa. You are wise guy. As are we. No need to quote Dante to you, but you understand that you are too young to go visit your rex Milutin in hell. Right Palamede?" - elbow touch to youngest brother who start to laugh coldly. Jacopo: "Nice heavy armour you got there, latest Italian fashion, classy colour. But they say it is not so practical if you try to swim in Danube with it."

(just joking some joke i made on ex-forum and saved and reworked for wider scetch) could have happened

something else, from earlier post and own words, when i said "our men" (how foreign principessas affected them etc) Well, technically for example was by mom maybe 100% French and papa 50% Italian (as Ana cutie was 100% we would say Italian today) BUT if you think that he was 25% Serb by those maths - consider that his grandma was again Italian anf only father Serb so it doesn't make 25% out of those 50% you think there are... and that is just Miluten. so generally mixing of nobility was great thing, something nice but beware that in our case it could produce something unexpected and unseen like HIM Dushan, a Nephilim

as for other subject I'm such Hercules... not that one, Hercul Parrot ; ...indeed, such is medieval things discourse and practice and in that sense again hopefully all my themes and subjects offered are good. Good thing, no sarcasm is that i found new love and impulse below heart for all those beuriful Latin heretic principessas of ours... many subject choose your own and always join if something to add or correct...

[Ale]

...yeah this is "great info" i wanted to put earlier esp. for literature fans or similar, for end...

mentioned that frescos of Dushan and Oliver, location is North Macedon monastery/main church Lesnovo in our, also known as "We-took-it-from-Serbs" in short in other languages ...anyway, story is, this is probably true not like medieval ) that Brian Aldiss, English mainly SF writer, visited it and generally there in Macedon and partly because of "powerful image of Dushan" he decided to write story "Day of the doomed king" - about Vukashin, king or king usurper died in 1371 (by Gabriele)...

wasn't some his interest but mere anecdote about that fresco, think more than nice one, even if story is not so important... who would say. Respect to him, although not historical, and Garbriele for touching such subjects long before Hollywood bored us all it is the end

[Ale]

so when we imagine Miluten in Jerusalem, his relics and image if skillfully made could inspire local future Brians ...on pic is btw that fresco if you are lazy to look at wiki or else, how it looks... indeed man of some "presence" or message, but that is just face that says it all, you should consider that he is painted in real size (3 meters) etc.

some humor, i have practice to give nicknames to our medieval figures like George "golden fork" or Miluten etc. So in humoristic way and for some jokes and maybe here in the future, if I ever mention him although not so important as even Dusciano supervised finish of Dechani church and had few laughs with Franciscans, anyway I have funny nickname for SU III Stefan Dechanski - from now on Stefan "Stevie Wonder" Dechanski ; ...where is joke - Stefan is equal to name Steven so Stevie is that and Wonder due to Stefan launching story about his vision/eyes being cured (story for nobility during short faction war) by divine wonder as for other you get it, nice one ... so if ever meantion, you get the joke ;

does look like alien invader... join with something own

[Ale]

few interesting facts, through camparison and investigations and some look at dates, generally maybe only as drafts by me, without any commentary now nor story with it... about again that piece of land that once belonged to us in Franciscan distric, even steet near Holy Sepultura

so like Miluten and Philip, same year set focus on Jerusalem, here are some things... Franciscan order settled in, around and took the look over Sepulture in 1309, Miluten in 1312 ("Archangels") lets say 100 m away... big activity is in years of Dusciano rule, some Anjou rulers secure, buy or give some sacral places in Jerusalem and wider to Franciscans - same years are years of Dushan's activity also in co-op with Franciscans as i mentioned, even trading some territories with Ragusa (so what we are Rascia sounds nice) and specifiying that some obligations are connected to financing our monastery in Franciscan district (our minister or noble Baldovin was present). so those are same decades 1330-40, when both activites took place... Avignon pope decrees franciscans as custodians in 1342, peak of Dushan's rule... Franz Joseph is also in the mix (funny if we consider my unaware joke of ring from movie) but by then it was sadly no more Serb East Orthodox Catholic monastery anymore (since some XVII c) etc. etc.

nothing spectacular nor guess interesting for many of readers, nor i have some story - just info/prosepctive to all on dates, events, relations regarding such location and how it compares with activity of other rulers... as i said interesting is that "Archangels" are by story related to some battle for which Miluten decided to invest so close to Sepulture etc etc. praised by Byzant source etc. as talked... to other readers, if we imagine that Serbs were noted for something - they, Franciscans nicely repaid by taking construction of that Dechani church for our rulers just few dacades later after "meeting" in Jerusalem etc. that maybe was - maybe favor for favor or indeed as our kings gained some fame in Jerusalem for some reason (maybe battle, maybe army unit) and that's why some investigations, but no story with this just dates and prospective for readers. So yes, there was some "polishing" of history maybe by both sides but some deatils survived and are interesting

let's say this story is now finished, but you have complete picture and dates now

[Ale]

yeah, Brian Aldiss wrote another work - much longer than "Doomed king" although this one much more interesting personally due to subject ; - inspired by his visits and again few impressive frescos. It is the novel "Barefoot in the head" from 1969... don't own it, did i read it maybe yes almost 30 years ago seem to remember some parts when i looked in English original which i will order etc. Totally forgotten as work by me, until some refreshing and that it was Brian who wrote it ;

from English review:

Psychedelic chemicals, the fruits of the Acid Head War, have turned Europe into a randomised freak-out. Charteris, finding himself taken up as a cult Messiah, believes this imposed image of himself. When he realises that the New Order can only think in terms of old stereotypes, and that in consequence he will probably be crucified, he shakes free of the delusions..

yeas, Brian that is Europe alright ...why is it related to his visits and 3 meter Dusciano ) - well main protagonist is Serb, only boyhood was in Serbia then moved in Italy - Europe is post apocalyptic as mentioned and he moves to England where it becomes some cult leader, don't know details nor interesting to me as "Doomed king" as subject..... to put my own words in review he moves to England as Brian put "He wanted English girls. He had never even known one but, since his earliest days, he had longed for all things English...etc etc" ...to make it humoristic, but scandalous, also Brian's words: "...trying to estimate whether her knickers would be clean or not He was fastidious. Italian girls generally washed more scrupulously than Serbian girls. Bright legs flashing behind torn windscreen." Scandal by Brian... and so on, book from 1969 but in a way some parts are good predictions ...also he wrote things like after arriving in England he finds nation more of mulates and mixed than what he anticipated as some northern country etc. Maybe was true how things looked like from outside in 1969 before the era of mass media, TV and internet - today we all know how some countries look like and similar, so i'm fictionally to move to England i finish with Turk or cute Arab girl etc... but written in 1969 again it had some things like possible wievs like Brian expessed through his characters...

from medievalist point of view Brian named protagonist, Serb, Colin Charteris - giving him originally Scottish last name even one Scot noble from wars with England (again in same time of Dushan's rule) was Charteris and died in battle with English... so generally maybe more traces of Dushan's fresco in Brian's mind, if true that inspired few works, more than great effect ...some trivia, Scottish king David II, Bruce, ruled officially from 1331 (as Dushan) and died in 1371 (as Dushan's son and last Nemanide) trivial but interesting years...

totally different subject i touched, some sources say that Israeli ambassador to Croatia - praising Croatia for being among few that voted against some Arab resolution, we were "abssent" (i.e. yellow in vote) all other ex-Yugosarm states voted for resolution of total unimportance - and he said "Serbs were lucky to be able to go to Serbia, nobody wants to accept Palestinians"... so i guess than we are Arabs of the "Baklavas" in some heads, simplified... Albanian representative in the UN, by Italian media, said before "what Israelis do is genocide like in Srebrenica" ; and so on and on, and on. Terror, haha... Why saying again is how people like to compare things that historically (history is important) uncomparable often having just one idea of own victimisation as truth... dislike it and never made any comparisons on any world (or regional) crisis - ex Yugosarma (it wa fully recognized state, people forget that) is not like Ukraine and Russia nor is same as Arab-Jews (and all atheist Israelis) it is not same as ww2 etc. Every has own history and different political background.... but that is world we live in, without any even try to be consistent - so in Europe we can have situation where one nation can "self-determinate" twice (and once have 2 voices in some fictional unity) and there are historical nations of milions that still can't get own statehood nor voice at all, without naming one i mentioned above (as said humoristically, it is on people to decide)...it is like that, Europe only. Of course if in name of "new order" we are forced to have English girls for example, it is disgusting.... (joking with Brian) ...have fun, always satire and truth in my words, but generally what i offered as subject is some medieval topics and how we can reconstruct some events without sources which are dubious or incosistent or not present at all... how we evoluted in "Arabs or Israelis" in some uneducated heads is not important as well as Kosano anymore (i understand the world, what to do with 2 mils of Albanians even though land is obviously named by Serb word and that it was historical part of Serbia etc etc) ...we annexed it from Turkey, it belongs to Turkey ) and we all, like Brian's protagonist, reached level of understanding that only Uranus there is future

have fun again, join with some interestings about David the Bruce for example and how he compares to Dusciano of own time, mind that he was probably under 2 meters personally can say that "Doomed king" touching Vukashin who is not reconstructed till today in our history is more relaxing and fun than other work of his and many other subjects, only wanted to say that comparisons are often bad in political sense... that much from me, maybe for longer time in this thread - if some medieval curiosity, always join me to look at some events...

[Ale]

pardon, i'm responsible person and discutant not like polios and elites

so to responsible correct myself - while i underline that it is completely unimportant as UN had so many votes about something, but not uninteresting nor "nothing" as it is indicative or let's say "shows something" in given time on any subject - ex-Yugosarm country of North Macedon was also abstent or yellow, only for correctness... often, due to linguistical reasons as others speak Serbo-Croat (also known as Serbo-Serb originally on Hymalayas)), we forget of Macedon, respected country created in today shape by Serbian troops ; ...and once even "capital" (Dusciano in fact had no permanent capital as many kings as they were mobile and diverse) of our empire - so more pardon than subject being important as i made mistake...

here is the vote - noticeable is "how strong feelings" on Judeo-Filistine ) some countries have, namely Fiji, Micronesia, Tonga etc. With all due respect, as i said we had best of possible diplomatic relations with Hawaii once, many medals and visits of high level ) but taken the countries as something that is objectivelly funny and good laugh.... as for ex-Habsburg core lands, we are yellow as marriage in 1330 did not realize and Habsburgs took as only shortly, found vampires inthere and then returned us gladly to Turks, so we ended yellow as i said always gladly correct myself even if i made unimportant error, practice not practiced by officials and historians ;

i'll use this chance to say something about "neutrality" or stands that are no stands - Yugosarma was example of that often (while ruled by Croatian emperor Titus)... in moment when it was about to collapse problem is that opinion "we are neutral everyone likes us then" is actually often seen as "they are neutral nobody likes them" to say satiricially and nobody will care much as it proved that both Russia nor France nor Londonderry will not vote against dissolution etc etc. Small satire but with truth about neutrality or being yellow ) often not being taken as "superior stand", not so much about Yugosarmia which is, together with modern history not my subject... also there are no friends nor sisters on the long run, Dusciano and Venice of all knew that the best have fun

[Ale]

...also will add this my words and eventual preference not to be misinterpretated as always, watched some international news and some tvs always have that subject of protest so one camera angle from i think London...

protest sign is held by Anglo-Sexon girl as it says on sign from some "socialist-worker" organisation, nicely written in Arabic... but what catched my attantion is some flags together behind by some protestant (Anglican)... first Palestinian flag, then Turkish and last in row Kosovarian with strangely "EU colors and stars" in contrast to others there but something else - while Kosano and Palestine are "victims of capitalistic imperialism" i wonder how Turkish flag fits into combo of "oppresed ones" needing self-determination if you get my idea, more likely Turkish flag is joke if we consider that someone else would like to determinate from it and there is "workers" name etc etc.

so yes, while i'm democratic to incredible heights there is something starnge there... so my stands and just not to be misunderstood (would never join protest under any flags, maybe own) and all, just wanted to say how useless officials in useless institution vote somwhere in NY and like all those comparing and word contest against Serbs of course i know very well where my sympathies are, political and cultural views are, also like sometimes playing "absent and abstent game", so i do not support anything

will say this that gives huge hope for humanity and our almost visible, near and imminent conquest of Uranus... in sea of badf news, war situation and genocides and very democratic socialistic mujaheedines something missed by world media in country i mentioned... nobody reported but milions protested in Turkey, Istanbul very bad position of country in democratic rights, "freedom house" lists, free media, even mentioned criminality list in which Turkey leads ; and (best of all!) protestors were joined even by president in their demands for democratization and rule of law and fight against criminalitet have fun, just to clear my positions not to be misunderstood - again i'm with Dusciano and Venice on this as always... with this finish this interesting block, with hope that Miluten will once be returned to us and sent to inspire youth in Jerusalem ;

[Ale]

interesting map i had been shown during Palmanus - no not satelite of Uranus, nor no relative of our emperor Trajanus, but our knigh and capitain i talked a lot - investigation in Steiermarkland, could be looked at if you like maps(and even use it for XIX open gen camps) but lost any importance today

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Et ... g_1855.jpg

we are not digging any old wounds and today we as country are blessed to be in incredible perfect relations with all our neighbours and no open questions and in harmony, but i have chosen this subject humoristically, always approach modern themes with dose of humor, keep seriousness for older history where i raised many interesting questions you can jump into... so in that humoristic sense I have choosen small fragment of map and marked some things we can all laugh at today i.e. how much Austrian publisher disfavoured/disliked Croats (our sisters originating from us on Himalaya) and we can all laugh at it, so laugh

so i marked Austrian maker and publisher words, they always put name of most dominant ethno i.e. national group over some area and funny part is regarding Croats as nation - there is no geographical area where Croats are singled out as sole group unlike almost all others of then Austrian empire ) Serbs were marked as huge solo group almost to central Croatia, in central and SW Croatia there are "Serbo-Croats" in Dalamatia "Morlaks" and Dalmatiner (yes, those with black & white dots, cute) and so on

while humoristical, serious conclusions would be, regarding many subjects i touched that, in contrast to popular opinions and how things developed later - that Serbs were much more "popular" and "liked" among Italians and all sorts of Germans (including Austrians) than actually many others, even in Latvia Latvinized (Teutonics)) Germans worked on drafting volunteers for Serbian front in XIX as i talked in small example... as for Italians and as Gabriele showed, no need to waste words...

as for map itself, we the Serbs can watch this map in same way as fra Mauro map today and his glam-silver and gold mines of once richest country in Europe have fun, hopefully i presented this satirically as ever... one must wonder how we ended as "enemies" of both Italians (never really but just in war) and Germans considering that they favoured us... that is BTW why i say that whole story about quasi-death of Habsburg princess Dusciano wanted to marry is very, very suspicious as natural death and all her quasi words about fear and some land she feared...

[Ale]

...while we have some "line" or "similarity" from fra Mauro (again Venetian priest and mapamaker fromm first half of XIV c) until that map above hence Italian/Venetian and Austrian/German data, on that interesting question of "Morlachs-ks" or probably from Mauro Vlachs or (theory) even Mare (sea) Vlachs (surely not Moors/Arabs etc) i.e. both sources mentioned them as something they did not call Serbs nor Croats etc even less Italians etc. In the same time sadly our most complete and important source from history predating both i.e. Dusciano Code(x) did not solve nor add anything to mystery or subject or to distinctions when we consider Dalmatia... btw, clearly Austrian map above equalize them with Istria population, except Italians, and also call them as such so it is wider than Dalmatia, but in the same time old Dlamatia was much wider subject historically as i talked so our capital Ras was border, or further inland, town of Roman Dalmatia and Superior Moesia (Serbia of course)

so Dusciano - while again it was most complete juristical source while not only in our history, Miluten had big one again - and we can consider then all Serbian kings and legislators did not give any answers nor distinctions, even on Serbs per se, let alone varoius Vlachs including "black" either due to clothing or due to usual black-white geographical divide from ancient times (black by some could mean northern, white southern but also in our practice "Black Serbs" and "White Serbs" are east and west ones etc. So, cutting short while our imperial and royal codexes did not give answers, and did not survive in original and complete, even surviving Duscianos are later redactions - always prone to suspicions as are they 100% word to word genuine etc. They however make distinction in many paragraphs and mention special statuses of "Vlachs" and higher elevation life... other interesting mentions (although non-ethnical per se) are that Serb kingdom knew and used practice of "krajinas" (in archaic Serb "krajishta") and "Krajina men" which even Nichephoras Gregoras met and mentioned, described ; ...Dushan and Nemanides obviously did not make any ethnic references but equally obviously mad some distinctions on "border men" (krajina) and did stipulate their respinsibility if enemy penetrates or damage lands of royal Serbs/Scyths of course Dushan's rule was well-spread over Dalmatia so why interesting for subjects of "Morlaks"

that much, since our codes are not so famous internationally, so just few lines on subjects from them... alrady talked that possibly Serbs were not some "huge mass", rather highly elite small units that somehow "overlorded" later... either that, or (also possible) Servian wall says it all ;

something else, i have that notion since Para mentioned his UNESCO subject and after seeing that some Habsburg was mentioned in some comissions and that some Habsburg is mentioned otherwise... and how we were scandalously left out of some minor "cultural heritage" things like falconry, cavalry, talking to and marrying papal families while having much more sources than many etc. and i said some "lobbies" it was more related to that we don't know why we were left out scandalously, maybe our representatices did not want to take part and not becuase others left us out by "lobbying" etc ; you know us, the Serbs, when we see name Habsburgs our hair (even if without hair) jumps up ...but generally yes, except Franz who deserved place in the Hague in last years of life sadly, some things where Austrians favoured us, like that map, without double meaning giving credit to Serbs as most important group/nation of whole region again, while i don't know what is background or behind scandalous us not being part on some lists, we had "mythical status" and respect from many German and Italian population, maybe due to wall that much, we couldn't solve question of "Morlaks" looking at Rascian sources predating both fra Mauro and Austrian map, which was main topic of this post... always join

[Ale]

...to add also, if totally unknown or less known to you, there is also that line of "old Roman population" (for example some Morlaks) and later Serbs in a way of symbolism from the moment when Serbs (royal Scyths)) lost their state and why many maybe old population later equalized themselves with Serbs (which all died post 1459, so there are no original Serbs today)) or joined that ethnos...

seriously, maybe "Serb skull" is related with some ancient Dalmatian pirates, or for example director Ridley Scott so famous for "hidden messages" or intentionally making some scenes in movies taken as not historical, while in this case not Ridley more scriptwriter but he decided to put it in scene... so Scott famously put line when Russell as gladiator says "deaths are looking at us all, we are laughing back at it" which was also one of many "mottos" (parolas) of Serb chetniks, or generally quoting many times Marco Aurelius (died and writen in Serbia Superior) in film etc. etc. Esp. "Anglo-Sexons" (or to say trully Brits) liked to play with Serbs having somehing with Romans, so Ralph chosen intentionally Belgrade as Rome etc.

so there is something inthere, maybe similarity of our fate to Romans/Italians after fall of state or similar which made some iconography of "avengers" circling in line Romans-Serbs-"Vlachs"-Serbs as symbols but in a way of freedom and some lines like Scott used maybe intentionally (he made Gladiator for example when Serbia was in the news etc.).... generally interesting subject, our sources did not make it clearer but did touch it... we are talking history here so do not dramatize when we or Italians say "long live our Dalmatia" it is not imperialistic but rather historic respect fun ;

[Ale]

problem with our Servo-Roman empires, one in first half of XIV and other in first half of XX c, is that they were sadly (for us, joy for others our likers)) is that they were short lived... but even in that short life of both there are some characteristics, not only geographical in way of constantly adding new provinces, of Roman administration and rorganization, namely we also tried to change administrative regions, names, organization of provinces in Roman manner in short life span, which is compatible to constant reorganizations of Romans etc. As i talked with Italians humoristically it would be great travesty if "aquila" wasn't part of our coat of arms as well as "four letters" mimicking "s.p.q.r." just with "s.s.s.s" (meaning Servia superior, senatus.... and i forgot)) BUT we did not forget "French lily" on it as well, representing our favorite lovers after our Caesar conquest and so on... and that wall protecting ancient 7 hills is, of all 200 nations, named "Murus Servii" is icing on cake we win, undobtedly..... one always must wonder as i theorised few times, is that something that assured for example Gabriele to say and shout "don't worry Serbia, victory is ours - Latin!"

whatever in consideration for fun or truth, i had that humoristic subject what name would your country take if there is obligation to change name so we have two possibilites from history: Rascia or Superior One imagine border table with some our naighbor on which it stands with huge letters "Serbia Superior" and across the border "XXX Inferior" ....some seriousness, if you never knew the subject, Moesia started to form really early in Roman imperial history, already as province or administrative unit in first century AD and gained its fame or most important moments during Trajanus when it wa already well-know as Moesia Superior, Trajanus is maybe most famopus name related to our country, although really many Roman emperors had some touch or birthplace in today Serbia superior (Constantine already during decline) etc. Moesii or Mesii (not related to football) were btw Thracian tribe (Spartacus) and almost to the end (although knowing Serbs are actually Romans from Rome) Byzantines intentionally called Serbs as some sort of Thracians, but more for other reasons... some administrative map, though Romans changed it many times nor this is 100% precise, to show how Superior looked like let's say during Trajanus, and how Dalmatia far reached in moment, having whole western Serbia today and almost good part of central, river Drinus wasn't border... but beside that Romans were clever not only to call it superior, but also good portion are today borders...

so small ancient stories who likes, it is almost unfair to talk just about modern things and our great two centuries during Nemanides, when we Romans of all have such rich ancient history ...in any way, subject is great in some serious details and i'm very greateful and congratulate some foreign authors or artists who touched it, probably trying to make some cool connection with famous wall in Rome... and it is cool that many Romanized population, having many choices at least here in region decided to join Serb ethnos historically... to bad they are no more in many regions but likable story... as i said Roman empire, Vlachs (who think it is pejorative, imagine that historically Poles callecd Italians as such), Serbia Superior, our Dalmatia and all that is huge subject i just touched sometimes with satire, sometimes true but will not stay on it... always join with something and new there in your (probably inferior but do not dispair)) province in Europe hope you like my stories always trying to be interesting

[Ale]

yes to add this also for those knowing film but not history, did not mention specifically before presuming that all of you know

as i already talked influences Scott & crew had during Gladiator, of course think many know the one where Russel is general - legio IIII or IV Flavia Felix (IV Flavian "the lucky one") was stationed most in its history in Serbia Superior not probably taking part (who knows) in wars against Germanic tribes from film around Vienna during Marcus Aurelius ; but not excluded that he knew well about its fame... it did take part in wars Superior had touch with and we do not have its full operational history but mostly stationed in today Serbia - another nice reference and credit from both Scott, scriptwritters and our, let's say, superiority that one to be chose for film and main protagionist...

nice one, presumed you all know but in case not...

[Ale]

actually it did fight Germanics on Danube - who can remember all...

so that is historically true (probably) - in any way certainllt and arguably one of top 7 most famous legions of whole Roman history and it is ours have fun

[randowe]

You seem to have no idea what superior means in the case of naming an geographical feature. But we get it, Serbia Superior existed in all times and the Serbian emporers ruled the world for thousands of years and were the first to travel to the moon and invent the cure for cancer. Have fun

[Ale]

aha here is he again uncalled - what to do if i have no parola to hide behind so people might think it is something personal or national and i will say right away - do not care about any of your topics anymore nor anything political from your East Europe region and will never again mention any theme from there - just to mention as some readers might think that he attacks me due to my nationality maybe ; ... as for superiority - noooo i don't have idea, now i realized how wrong i am when someone of such knowledge explains to me.... even though Latin and subject was theme of my early doctorate ; ...i honestly thought that superior means being "like dude above", arian like Adolf or what and "inferior" i thought means some "Morlak" having no idea about Latin and true things only others know

anyway, we won't let new personal attacks by unstable personality (pardon again, but it just looks like that as it is repeated offence with only purpose of attack and not having anything to add to thread) in something which is generally thread where i want to discuss some historical things or anything else, even have some fun on subjects of today or past - and someone is taking it personally due to having too much prejudices (maybe again, do not know what provoked dude to post)... look mister have no idea what you have seen there that you dislike this time, maybe something about Felix legion because it was so famous and all, but believe me that is much more relaxing as subject as i'm working on some scenarios for OG involving our famous Felix legion... so there will hopefully be not renewed anger and frustration from you, nor repetition nor post-for-post replying, pub is "anything about history, politics, pop culture" as stated

main focus should be keeping it clear and without any (for some unknown reason) frustration attacks so things like that should be deleted even if by "red color provocateurs"... forum is generally open and even more generally i try my best to be fun and always discuss some things like some map or some data... so if there was some bad personal episode in your life we can't do anything about it and we will gladly give you time to rethink behaviour and not repeat same mistakes... generally delete such things. really do not know what - something about Goebbels i said somwhere, Habsburg (sadly i think you don't know crimes against civilians if that frustrated you, recorded by German-Swiss doctor btw) surely not frustrated by Felix legion which is more our subject than your... etc. so come to your senses while it doesn't become almost some own fixation or some mental creation of unknown origin when it comes to my tries to give topics to forum... again 100% friendly and calm as i was before you made own trollings, as i don't follow what mister has with it, best thing to delete such things not to "decompose" some topics - also freely delete any my post where i jumped in on someone's thread just to spit and make garbage, or attack, but you will not find any such...

as for others Felix legion was subject this time indeed one of most famous and stationed in Singidunum (today Belgrade) - kudos to Scott and filmmakers as it is closely related with area and country, our and international archologists found some details about its operational history, stationary acticity and all... bravo Scott for using that data, legendary legion always join on similar subjects the more topics and daily posts, the better forum and traffic, so share something - forums are different, been like that always and people present some topics avoiding any personal spitosery and attack posts, we are grown up... with this i finish this one, i say delete such things and let it be last one - as for all others welcome, do you agree that IV F Felix was among top 5 of best/most famed Roman legions for example

[randowe]

Your posts are an insult to every forum user's intelligence and sanity. Never in 25 years of internet have i encountered a bigger troll than you. You are lucky that none of the admins care about this forum anymore.

[Bombast the Blue]

Your posts are an insult to every forum user's intelligence and sanity. Never in 25 years of internet have i encountered a bigger troll than you. You are lucky that none of the admins care about this forum anymore.

Taking an epistemological approach to the phenomenon:
That is one of the possible interpretations.
I am one prone to complicate things, so, I think the phenomenon may be much less random than just that... and deeper...

On a side note, I was forum and game server Admin back in my times of Enemy Territory and if there was something I learned from that experience is that the "having fun" argument, in game community environments, translates almost 100% of the time for "having fun at the expense of others".

Oh! And as PGX forum Admin I recently applied a ban, for various reasons, but mainly a general bad attitude for a long period of time recently "crowned" by an outburst of pro russian war / anti Ukrainian propaganda.
And this latter phenomenon is rampant nowadays and will only get worse as time goes by and things get worse for those who started the Third European Civil War. One of these days they will wake up to the fact that all they are left with are nukes and propaganda...

Still going back to it:
Just remembered how a thread I started just to let people know I have a set of books on Portuguese Military History...
In case someone may want me to "dig" on a given subject in search of info...
Got transformed in something that was a precursor to this thread...
But that some people don't like being done what they seem to like doing to others comes as no surprise to me...
It's just human,,, or trollish, just saying without leaving any parola out, or maybe just having fun...