Open Mike

[HexCode]

Topic Legitimacy

The Pub's description follows:

Place of the offtopic, funny or interesting threads, discussions about history, politics, movies and other war games.

1) Place of the offtopic.

2) Funny. I should hope so.

3) Interesting. I should hope so.

4) Connected to history, politics, movies.

5) Other war games.

Opening... Salvo

Elsewhere in THIS S&L forum:

This is hardly the place to compare common law to civil law.

on the contrary, colleagues, on the contrary... go ahead, you are welcome and i'm very interested

Now what ?

[Ale]

..........


liked your style back there, guess you could be interesting to talk to.... more Roman law expert myself (the one losing to be paraded in chains by victor, in short) but have interests and ready for action, good argument and humor (history, vulcanology & anything inbetween in wide range) see you ;

[Ale]

one very important thing I always stress out, like own "legacy", about any possible discussion there can be - especially in social sciences including law and history etc. - is about premises. I.e. if premise on subject one has is wrong any dicusion is simply bad and useless and will not change anything, nor educate a bit.

i have solid knowledge on some things and will give an example so common in own experience... national medieval history, due to fate of the state is very (and of course wrongly) influenced by church and religious figures through years as only ones keeping the knowledge (except foreign sources, of course) but at the same time bluring and distorting objective/factual knowledge of the era (to great extent, not completely). Example: if king X is not declared saint by church, people without deep knowledge start with a premise that he was not good without reasoning properly about roots of some conflict (for example son-father). To put it simply with one obvious example i faced.

objectiveness is hard to reach and that is why always tried to look in outside sources if available, but not venerating them also as truth. personally, learnt to like Italian ones for example through years although those from XVI to XIX century are also not of great quality ; Have no idea of your intention but liked to add nonetheless, in good thread

[HexCode]

This Virtual Pub could serve as a residual repository of sorts accommodating posts which do not easily fit anywhere else in these forums. However, there's something more important to consider. A physically existing pub doesn't accommodate written... traditions; instead, pub interactions therein strictly obey oral... traditions. Moreover, interactions therein tend to be ad hoc, dangling, often anarchic, sometimes chaotic and, most importantly, mercifully... ephemeral.

For my part, I fully intend to stick to the "spirit" of interactions as experienced in physically existing pubs.

Have no idea of your intention

By launching the "Open Mike" topic I intended to emphasize two things: ephemeral, "hodgepodge" inclusiveness and total lack of structure and continuity.

Of course, there's no escaping it; posting is, well, writing. To boot, other posters may decide to launch other topics in this forum as they see fit.

By the way, I sincerely hope that my "approach" to posting as outlined above will drastically reduce the number of "launch - post something - and move on" topics.

My... favorite, ephemeral, "hodgepodge" posts:

Topic Basics & Plenty of My Own Favorites || Historical Nostalgia ||The Meaning of Nationality || Imperial What ? || Principled Republicans ? || Human Tendencies || History's "Uses" || Playing Backgammon || Civilizational Youth || Lilith || Safe Spaces || Procrustes in Action || Relative Deprivation || Road Runners || How the Grinch Stole (?) Christmas || Yesteryear's Atlantic Wall || Imitate or Not || Free Associations || Online Technical Documentation || Pimps, Prostitutes & Transfixed Bystanders || Universal, Compulsory, Military Service || Da, You Brave SoB, Da || Scale Consistency & Scalability || The Plague || Ah Those Scents || Special Human Opponents || A Vicious Cycle || Civilizational Addiction || Horrible & Wonderful || Evolutionary Totalitarianism || Hubristic Acceleration || Whose Rome ? || Political Correctness ? || Adventurist Tokenism || Scrooge || Merriments || Hey Allies, Grab That SoB || Feminist International || Canine Arms Races || Open Mike Revisited || Humor... Injections || Dig Up Those Holes, Will You ? || Tony, the World Is Yours || No More Uncles, OK ? || It's All About Weapons || Canines In... Chaos || Disappointments || Virtual Twistedness || Chess Café || Counterfactual Zombie Chieftains || Online Gaming... Zombie Affairs || Urological Matters || Hormones Rule || Short Blanket... Syndrome || Sex Appeal || Recapitulation || Poor Vlad || Roman Affairs || Political Passions || Only the Stupid... Reveal || You Cheaters, You || Posting Freedoms || Kill, Kill, Kill || I Dare You, Pull That Trigger || Give Me Something Else || Deep Satisfaction || Generals: A Dime a Dozen || Sage Advice || People At... War || Racial... Preoccupations || Historically Counterfactual Narratives || Role-Playing, History & Political Ideology || I Hate You, Period || Useful Math Concepts || Border Controls || Syllogisms || Practical... Misanthropy || Let Them Folks Be || Only Then ! || Pub Posting Restrictions ? || Plain Talk || Have You Had Enough ? || After Hours Wargaming Preoccupations || Exhaustion Mysteries ? || Broom Stick & Baklava || The Baklava Chronicles || Baklava Invasion || Causes || Classic Preferences || Societal Attitudes || Nation-State "Interests" || Collective Narratives || Philosopher... Pimps || Power: Its Dramaturgical Foundation || The Meaning of... Soup || Exodus, Exodus || Technology & Hope || Incontinent... Analogies || Read Only Memory || Ideas (Part I) || Ideas (Part II) || Slowly Boiling Society's... Frogs || Sensory Annoyances || Inferiority: That Unbearable Feeling || Just Like the... Weather || I'm Privileged, You Hear ? I'm Somebody || Girl, the World Is Yours || Gender Roles || Inspirational Paraphrasing || The Masks Are Down || Let's Cut to the Chase || Unmistakably, the Pub Is... JP's Territory || Military History & Education || My Posts In These Forums || Neither Forgotten, Nor Forgiven !

[Ale]

Alright, thanks for explaining As expected, didn't help but great style )

i just had to bore about things I like, write medieval satire sometimes but also like to dig small details for serious things. sometimes feel like i could write a book about many things and put some ideas, but if I do that I'd had noone to sell it to as market is small ... i'll finish with adding that i share your hope about possible content presence, personally not into starting historical subjects at the moment as they were useless back at JP's too (and so far we are mostly same people from there)

[HexCode]

@ Ale

i'll finish with adding that i share your hope about possible content presence, personally not into starting historical subjects at the moment as they were useless back at JP's too (and so far we are mostly same people from there)

A couple of thoughts.

On the basis of revealed ID handle choices, forum design requests and some of the proposed candidate names for the Virtual Pub, I would venture to speculate that quite a few posters view the present forums as some Version 2.0, if not seamless continuation, of those "other" ones. To boot, "historical nostalgia" may be significantly at play.

The "uselessness" that you made reference to points to something rather critical; namely, near universal lack of poster participation. As for the causes (or combinations thereof), well, "Open Mike" seems to me to be the ideal place for folks to come up, grab the microphone and fearlessly speculate, pontificate, whatever...

By the way, the proverbial pudding doesn't require a... mathematical proof; just measured perseverance and a good sense of humor !

[Ale]

the proverbial pudding

in my case I'd often describe it as "proverbial diarrhea" as I use a lot of non PC humor too often and you know about world we live in and all the sensitivities.... as a sort of self control, sometimes try to limit myself at least to nations like Italians, Greeks and my own when describing characters, "close mentalities" and "safer bets" but not generally. But boy, i guess i did offend some in lifetime (of not much travel), foreigners. I'll remember one Greek tavern owner's face forever, but not important story...

anyway - my known - want to say that in case you are not English yourself, very nice knowledge and use of that language, something i can't do really

[HexCode]

@ Ale

in my case I'd often describe it as "proverbial diarrhea" as I use a lot of non PC humor too often and you know about world we live in and all the sensitivities.... as a sort of self control, sometimes try to limit myself at least to nations like Italians, Greeks and my own when describing characters, "close mentalities" and "safer bets" but not generally. But boy, i guess i did offend some in lifetime (of not much travel), foreigners. I'll remember one Greek tavern owner's face forever, but not important story ... anyway - my known - want to say that in case you are not English yourself, very nice knowledge and use of that language, something i can't do really

Aha, interesting stuff.. A good ol' jukebox selection follows... It's from Father Time's Jurassic archives...

The Meaning of Nationality

I received yet another private communication from a poster. The poster prefaced his post as follows:

... you are an American, right ?

That got me thinking...

1) What does the legal concept of citizenship have to do with... posting in these forums ? Not much, I would imagine. However,

2) Here is a recent excerpt from a "historically" focused topic:

You - in the USA ? So why don't you move to Cuba ? In the 50's a lot of Americans lived there. I live in a country that communists used to rule.

Notice that we have moved from de jure citizenship to de facto residence / domicile. Is this significant ? History is fair game, of course. To this effect, the floodgates open up. We are no longer talking just about the academic subject of History; nay, personal experiences entwined with strongly felt emotions enter the picture as well... Assumptions regarding other posters' backgrounds abound, justified or not !!

3) Given that posting is mediated by the Internet, the use of the term "American" can be particularly troublesome:

a) In a narrow sense, the term "American" may point to the historically dominant use of the English language in the medium. To this effect, fewer people tend to associate the English language with the... United Kingdom.

b) Related to preceding point (a), the term "American" often points to the cultural diffusion of "things American" via the medium. In some ways, "American" may stand for something akin to "Postmodernist Western Civilization".

4) Going back to the issue of language use, Western civilizational postmodernity has witnessed the widespread employment of the English language in international settings. In some respects, it has become the lingua franca of our times. This cuts both ways:

i) One's good command of the English language may lead someone to believe that a person has been born and raised in an Anglo-Saxon milieu. This is not always the case, especially when it comes to a lingua franca.

ii) Using the English language for communication purposes may be interpreted by certain ethnocentric individuals as a betrayal of one's ethnic / national heritage accompanied by a loss of a clear-cut historical identity.

Them are the ways of... postmodernity.

On behalf of the above quoted poster(s), I'm getting off the proverbial soapbox now...

[Ale]

interesting read, but not really understandable for me as not really "self-sensing" myself as part of virtual world...

however - just before i put down the "mike" for those standing in line ) - i'd personally make it obligatory for all participants of online community of a sort to be "identified" in some (least hurting) manner. Just like participants on real life panels and forums, unimaginable without some sort of cards and IDs on tables if not chests or around necks... beside technicality previously stated, to me it is also "cultural" thing as I'm from culture where is said that you hide something only if ashamed of it ; (without going into are things one or other use to hide really something to be ashamed of)) .... the way it is, to me is too clandestine & without any need too, but alas...

never had problem with this sort of identification online, while never forced anyone to go into etnicity if not wanted, locations is to me at least decent way of behavior. Maybe - to return to previous statements - if world forces someone to feel unpleasant about things then I could understand... as stated, never felt that pressure and that's why also can take a lot of "punches" in sense of criticism and jokes and uneasy situations avoided by beforehand knowledge.

"mike" down, but i think i could come back to other subjects here (as you nicely invited and described, about nothing) in moments of bore or inspiration to say something..... feel sorry that we are left short of that common-civil law discussion

(as for mentioned Greek, to prevent conspiracy, his cuisine just sucked)

[HexCode]

not really "self-sensing" myself as part of virtual world...

The virtual world is incorporeal, mediated and symbolic.

i'd personally make it obligatory for all participants of online community of a sort to be "identified" in some (least hurting) manner

Why ? Just play the (chess) board, not the man.

it is also "cultural" thing as I'm from culture where is said that you hide something only if ashamed of it ; (without going into are things one or other use to hide really something to be ashamed of)) .... the way it is, to me is too clandestine & without any need too, but alas...

Culture is localized and evolves through face-to-face interactions and inwards pointing narratives. The Internet is a civilizational construct which nullifies all things "cultural". "Shame" is unknown to the Internet...

... uneasy situations avoided by beforehand knowledge.

Why should they be avoided ? Very much like worthwhile news, such "situations" serve as gateways to deeper intellectual understanding, unadorned by deceptive etiquette ways and popular opinions.

feel sorry that we are left short of that common-civil law discussion

Don't give up so easily. It has been suggested that civil law has always served as the convenient handmaiden of Continental European authoritarianism and totalitarianism...

before i put down the "mike" for those standing in line

I don't "see" any; do you ?

[HexCode]

Elsewhere in THIS S&L forum:

... even the Anglo-Saxon countries have electoral laws and these laws are prepared for all possible outcomes (e.g. what happens if a candidate dies, is arrested, a ballot box is lost, or suspicious, uncertified ballots are found, etc.), and the laws aren't fabricated when the unexpected becomes real

. . .

... the candidate with the most votes will win (so we use the "first past the post" voting system)

. . .

... our voting system is much better and more honest than most elections all over the world

There's an interesting angle here potentially entwining the legislative and judicial branches of government. What if, say, a supreme court were to intervene and situationally interpret the electoral rules ?

There's something odd about the established expression "first past the post". Namely, if, say, one needs 50% of the votes cast plus 1 additional vote to win then, yes, the post is none other than the 50% mark. Notice though that, mathematically, the first one also is the only one that can accomplish that. Curiously enough, voting systems requiring just vote plurality for a win definitely lack predefined posts, despite them being described as "first past the post" voting systems.

Finally, yes, a voting system allowing for multiple preferences tends to be more representative of an electorate's collective wishes when compared to some single preference voting system.

[HexCode]

Elsewhere in this forum:

... looking for cultural anecdotes & stereotypes ...

Ok, then; distant echoes...

... these pseudo-germans {i.e., "Austrians"} who ...

Anecdote or stereotype ? One thing's for sure. The political correctness (PC) meters in... Brussels have just gone off their carefully crafted and calibrated scales.

EDIT: lvjtn (csaba) edited this post

[lvjtn]

The political correctness (PC) meters in...

so after a longer discussion the og forums mod teams decided my words what you quoted don't fit the policy of this forum. sorry, it was my fault to go beyond the limits

so i suggest a less offensive expression:

"austria, which is best known for her most famous citizen, adolf hitler" or whatever you wish to insult them

and yes, i think everybody should tolerate when his/her nation, religion, diet, lifestyle, etc. is mocked. imo hate speach is when somebody proposes physical attack against a person or a group, but it seems people tend to tolerate the stalinist cenzorship more than the free speach. but, and i can't emphasize it enough: it's only my personal opinion. the official policy of the forum is not hurting anybody, both you and me should deal with it. a very big here

[Ale]

Hex Code, must admit I missed the quoted line and all the story behind it, too bad (as I repeated many times) that community is too small to be "interesting" for all of us liking good discussion or joke. That's why i haven't reacted, as no fun if no action.... i agree with Csaba about free speech thing and that's also cultural thing to me (guess him too)

however, I'd like to note something about my nasty Mexican jokes and cute story I imagined for some time now, for those failed to get... It is not so much about nations, more about Luis importance in OG community and "fortunate circumstances" with him sharing last name with famous Mexican drug baron, plus a lot of Spanish speaking members around. To me it's cute to him maybe not (although i'm sure he doesn't care) so i have whole set of scenes with it and his loyal lieutenant "El Csabo"

if repeated in some way, do not mind and it is not offense : ) hope is, along the lines of policy I don't care serious and historical talks too, as have a lot of interesting details - but again, community must be bigger.

[Ale]

talking about favorite Austrians, mine is currently Adolf Hütter Frankfurt fc coach, seriously.

[lvjtn]

that's also cultural thing to me (guess him too)

absolutely. and as i see, the former iron curtain is still a strong cultural border. in "west" people dare to say much less "edgy" things than we do in "east". and imo it's basically a self-cenzorship. hurting others' feeling is not an appropriate thing in the "west", while i guess english vs. scotish vs. irish or basq vs. spanish or danish vs. swedish or flamish vs. wallon conflicts still exist, and people in the "west" have their own "racist" issues, they just don't dare to speak about these conflicts and feelings, or at least not in the saloons, these topics are inferior, belonging to the football hooligans

personally i think, the second most famous austrian psychopath named sigmund freud is wright in this question, and suppressing our feelings in order to not hurt others is not healthy, but as i see, it's not a thing what can be easily discuss among people with different cultural background, and insulting other persons' identity is more and more a taboo in europe, like it or leave it

[Ale]

sometimes I think I'm in favourable position in political sense.... when someone (lets say Mexican) says "you in Europe" i say I'm not Europe, or says "western world" (in military sense) i say i'm not in western world, or mentioned ethno-race I say I'm Sarmato-Persian etc. etc.... ) say it regarding Csaba's remarks, however I think my own political context is closer to Mexican (just less violent) Generally world is complicated and in political sense I guess I'm much more likely to say something "unpleasant" and bizzare to other ears, politically incorrect and such - that's why I try to avoid it... worst of all not even sure what i think, globally or continentally speaking ) Csaba knowns it very well, we all had different historical circumstances and realities and that's why sometimes there are "troubles" some do not understand

[HexCode]

... so after a longer discussion the og forums mod teams decided my words what you quoted don't fit the policy of this forum. sorry, it was my fault to go beyond the limits ...

Your "words" didn't cross any obvious lines in that "other" Web venue. They're still there. So, as far as I'm concerned, you did nothing wrong "over there".

This brings us to the OG forums. I would have imagined that it would be the 3 Administrators who would be deciding about such matters. Why involve Moderators as well ?

... it seems people tend to tolerate the stalinist censorship more than free speech...

Just stalinist ? Imperial societies don't give a fig about "free speech". Everything revolves around making sure that mega-cities don't become ungovernable. It's the millions...

...the second most famous austrian psychopath named sigmund freud

If I remember correctly, he suggested that psychotics are healthier than neurotics.

... community is too small to be "interesting" for all of us liking good discussion or joke.

"Community" size may not necessarily be the deciding factor here. Here's an interesting question: to what extent is pub-style jovial banter (in)compatible with the personalities of those attracted to hex-based "wargaming" ?

... when someone (lets say Mexican) says "you in Europe" i say I'm not Europe, or says "western world" (in military sense) i say i'm not in western world, or mentioned ethno-race I say I'm Sarmato-Persian etc. etc.... )

Terms such as Europe, West etc are about geography. However, "Europe", "West" etc are placeholders for dominant value systems. Presently, there's a struggle between values favored by imperial societies and those held by population segments beholden to historical narratives based on ethnicity and localized religious beliefs and ways. The fuss about political correctness is exactly about that...

[Ale]

well, your last paragraph - after quoting me - looks like completely in line with my point, hence I guess you understood the point in my words.... however I (personally) am very cautious with using "imperial" atribute as - if not for any other reason - in micro world it is epithet used by at least 5-6 countries around mine to describe practices of my nation in last 100-200 years (forget about middle ages) of course in "macro world" it is so tiny compared to those real imperial tendencies pressuring populations of 100s of millions, circa. IDK, i'd say that in philosophical sense agreement is hard to reach (maybe that's good, democratic) and sticking to values (debatable themselves too, as subjective categories) is something to think about... in that sense, stronger in humor and satire.

[HexCode]

@ Ale

I make a rather important distinction between imperial society and imperialism. An imperial society is characterized by many mega-cities with their ethnically and religiously diverse populations beholden to cosmopolitan values. Such societies tend to engage in "classic" imperialist practices only near their geographic peripheries. More importantly, imperial societies promote the adoption of cosmopolitan values in places far away from their borders.

A nation can behave imperialistically, of course. However, it doesn't host an imperial society imbued with cosmopolitan values. That said, national imperialism may be hidden under cover of some promised / imagined imperial society of the future. A good example is historical Russian imperialism hidden under ideological covers such as Pan-Slavism and International Communism (i.e., pseudo-cosmopolitanism).

[Ale]

debatable and with some prejudice.... look - for example - when I was going to primary school in the 80s out of 30 pupils in my class at least 10 were not Serbs, hence 30% of total. As "empire" (objective or subjectively speaking) transformed to national state - followed by all known political turmoil and desire of other nations - percentage dropped etc. I think you get the point... so I wouldn't divide big states and empires in that way, by prejudice and false interpretations. Even question of national i.e. ethnic origin and its "monolithness" is wrongly understood as in nation formation (at least in my case generally) has a lot of "pan-national" and "imperial" in itself. One cannot explain in any other way how could tribe described by sources as "big enough" to settle in one village grow to be nation of few millions. Sex is not the only answer .... finally, promoting "imperial beauty" and pan-nationalism is often just good way to mask real domination and cultural subjegation of those not accepting its "beauty". And in that sense I agree with you - weather it is Russian, Spanish, both German (Habsburg second), Ottoman i.e. Turkish (esentially, because Turkic cultural element subjugated other cultures in ruling structures, although - for example - person X attacking us in XV c. was Georgian or Azeri) etc. etc. too many to be just concentrated on few in Euro-history as world is big ) you are clever enough to understand, however debate is tiresome and not of crucial value to me

[lvjtn]

Why involve Moderators as well ?

because admins couldn't decide anyway, the most important reason was not to discourageing the potential forum members/visitors who are used to read friendly / less sharp comments

while i agree with the goal (creating a friendly zone for pg, pg2, ag, og, peg, pgf, etc. players), i always thought the real tolerance is accepting those opinions what we don't like or what we disagree, and when we create a "safe place" where hurting others' feeilings is not toleareted, we basicaly creat our own intellectual prison, but again, it was just my personal opinion

Just stalinist ?

well, you know, in hungary, bolshevism/stalinism/communism was reccently the ultimate ideology which was based on that the "chosen ones, aka the party members know everything better, you shouldn't think about them, you should just follow your orders". of course, there are many other ideologies limiting the free speech, free think. i just like to mock the new left (you know, the greens / environmentalists, etc.) that they are lovechildren of stalin and hitler, and fighting for the "greater good" always ends in supporting some kind of totalitarianism. of course, if you prefer, you can call it "imperial societies"

i often try to use the apostrophes when my words are absolutely superficial. i hope you understand them

btw. the imperial societies, it's so interesting how strongly each "empires" try to create an ideology / religion for their members / citizens / subjects, how easily these ideologies (etc.) are accepted by the masses and basicaly the insider heretics are always punished more than the outsider enemies, and these masses always think they are the "good guys". and basically questioning any of the actual believes is always a blasphemy

well, sorry for my brainstorming, i'm going to prepare cc76

[HexCode]

... debatable and with some prejudice ... however debate is tiresome and not of crucial value to me

It depends on why one even bothers to post under this "pub-like" topic. To date, I'm not at all clear on your reasons for doing so. I can only speculate that you put a lot of emphasis on internalizing "objective history". In my case, I believe that it's a society's scale which essentially circumscribes that society's main politico-economic and socio-cultural characteristics. If so, notions such as "authoritarianism", "democracy", "liberty" and so on are anything but universal either in their meaning or in their concrete manifestations...

[Ale]

we went long way down from Adolf of Frankfurt to here, but this is absolutely my last one on empires... why would I talk about empires at all. yes, we had one true emperor (greatest in human history after Xerxes) but not really my field nor subject. Europe considered my fav is Roman one - too many similarities, law and order similar to our style, eagle, national respect to wolves, dinari etc... )

about humanitat, greatness and imperialism - there is one German historian of 100 or more years back (even if threatened by death I couldn't remember his name now and it is not von Ranke, i remember detail from the book) who had hypothesis - which doesn't mean it's fact - that Gypsies (Romas) were persecuted eastwards and our king-emperor-god Dušan gave them refuge in his realm of the time, but resettled them from Danube to Greece, not to upset ethno mosaic. The point is that if he lived longer, had more cannons and ships and if greater predators weren't around (lots of ifs obviously) we all in the world would maybe sing another song about cosmopolitism and rulers of Constantinople and Galata would be Venetian club maybe (as was his offer to them))... not that I give any personal judgement on migrations (debatable and restrictable) just saying as fun historical moment i.e. relativity of history, regardless of this being not or true as fact (however other things are true)

also - last one - there were Italian cities of insignificant size of the time and much less cosmopolitan than big empires, however doesn't mean all people just ate potatoes there not thinking about shape of the world and all ).... out of subject, next time on another one maybe, with humor always.

[HexCode]

@ Csaba

... i always thought real tolerance is accepting those opinions that we don't like or that we disagree with, and when we create a "safe place" where hurting others' feelings is not tolerated, we basically create our own intellectual prison.

. . .

it's so interesting how strongly each "empire" tries to create an ideology / religion for their members / citizens / subjects, how easily these ideologies (etc.) are accepted by the masses and basically the insider heretics are always punished more than outsider enemies, and these masses always think they are the "good guys" ... questioning any of these beliefs is always {considered} a blasphemy.

My friend, that's precisely where the dilemma faced by principled republicans the world over lies. On one hand, practical experience has taught them that the masses don't give a fig about anything "intellectual", let alone consistently ethical, always yearning for uncritically received ideological prescriptions. On the other hand, these principled souls kind of know that intellectual prisons springing from "benign intolerance" eventually lead to real prisons or worse... Whether they can do anything about such a looming, creeping threat is highly debatable; most probably, the goose has already been cooked for good !

By the way, I'm glad to see you posting under this topic. Frankly, we don't need too too many topics to discuss the... world. Specifically, there's a pub with a delicious, internally conflicted name which features a virtual mike freely available to any passerby. What more can one ask for ?

[Ale]

working late until weekend, including writing... yep, nothing I imagined nor lied, theory is by Karl Hopf (having wiki page as well) ...for history lovers, however satirical interpretation about "humanitat" is mine

a bit of serousness as we are talking different ethno group here, me being expert (sounds good but we not all think the same on subjects and have interpretations) on own national medieval history unlike most foreign scholars who rarely were able to go through our "raped" sources (respect to all who did) I will add, knowing emperor almost personally ) & strategic goals, of course humanitarian work and "refugee crisis" on conference level wasn't an option, excessive brutality not an option as well. Intelligent guy, maybe a bit beyond his national reality and time, able to make a lot of enemies in & out. The end.

[Ale]

using or abusing "mike" one more time - one of best ideas HC - to say something about wikipedia again... personal dislike is not new, but not important as of course real experts (biased too) are not giving it huge value as source of knowledge. Beware of politics though

anyway, don't know about the rest of you but I also noticed a lot of changes in texts in past years, at least in articles I visited before and recently again, changes for the worse or better depends on other sources one has... however, this time I noticed one totally minor (among some other, "major") change in domain of fun but historically correct (PC too i guess) in article about Dušan i visited last night again, to see how it goes... namely, few years ago his foreign army included "Spanish infantry", now it stands "Catalan halberdiers" Nothing wrong here, just fun in correctness. I call them "Almogavers" in satirical work ). Academic dispute is were these people (number unknown) really fragments of, in Greece & elsewere, "notorious" Catalan companies (making Dušan looks more brutal)) or people unrelated arriving from Italy i.e. Iberia (as some sources indicate hired from Ragusa in small numbers etc) .... i say this as interesting observation on articles - no dispute, reaction ) just had to add and go now...

[HexCode]

@ Ale

... using or abusing "mike" one more time - one of best ideas HC ...

Thanks; a pub with such a wonderful name fully deserves to feature some wired electrical equipment...

Beware of politics though ... few years ago his foreign army included "Spanish infantry", now it stands "Catalan halberdiers"

Well, consider the following two fundamentally antithetical groupings of tendencies characterizing human societies since the beginning of "history":

Grouping # 1

Driving to unite
Pursuing expansion
Focusing outwards

Grouping # 2

Driving to fragment
Pursuing contraction
Focusing inwards

If so and, under Grouping # 2, one possible line of opposition to the European Union (EU) could be a drive to politically fragment its "big" nation-states. Personally, I'm not convinced. There's a good chance of such envisaged "successes" backfiring, thereby rendering the EU politically stronger. In plain language, say, Belgium plus Finland plus Malta do not a united Spain make... Therefore...

[Ale]

must admit you are guilty for my last few posts. it's like Pavlov's dog reflex - when I hear words empire/imperial i instantly remember glory days & greatest of them all and then I could talk long about details of the era you just had to be there to understand its greatness... but it's not interesting to have some serious debate in this format, to quote Csaba "like Hungarian pub" )

btw, comical moment about Catalans/Almogavers in my joke is that they lack any manners with superiors and always say "Si, Jefe" on commands (iritating Germans)) and when pissed of they say "you'll pay for this!" (aiming at "Catalan revenge" trick) such work is personal fun

serious (wiki bash or other topic) or just for fun I can post periodically as it is sometimes just 10 mins daily, but for both of us it's not blog, it's forum )

[Ale]

only "relevant global subject" I can speak about with serious face is vulcanology (amateur myself).... but even there, when Italian told me something about Vesuvius i told "It's gonna blow furiously." but never told when, so it may be in 1000 years ))

i recon you like political talks, me not that much. As explained before, realities are different and like wikipedia (on history) everybody can take/place parts to create likeable or PC mosaic. There is no need to lie i.e. fact might be straight, but it is suficient not to tell the whole story... or to return to Napoleon - maybe i can agree with some ideas but how to think great about someone because of whose actions i'd be most likely end up dead if i lived then that's why I talked my story above and maybe didn't discuss properly on some of your points and will not most likely

[lvjtn]

There is no need to lie i.e. fact might be straight, but it is suficient not to tell the whole story...

in high school (long-long time ago i specialized to study history and the most important thing i learnt was there are no facts in history. first of all, there are very few sources, the longer we go back to the past, the less we have at all, and their reliability is more and more questionable. and gaps between the small "fact" mosaics are always filled with interpretations, which can be completely different. e.g. when i made my hungarian and austrian 1848/49 campaigns i read different sources what where available in english, and it was funny to see interpretations mutually excluding each others. e.g. according the hungarian sources, the battle of isaszeg in april 6, 1849 was one of the shiniest victory in the hungarian history, according to the austrian sources it was an inconclusive minor skirmish with austrian "tactical retreat" at the end. and of course according the hungarian sources, the hungarian side fought to restore the millenial constitution, habsurgs were only usurpers, colonial conquerors, etc. according to the austrian sources, they fought for the law and order, and hungarians were half-asian barbar rebel hordes not respecting the civilized values (well, seeing our reputation in eu now, there should be something in it )

the funny thing is that both sides could cite hundred years old proclamations, declarations, peace agreements, laws accepted by the feudal parliaments, etc. what supported their interpretations. and these documents seem to be "facts"

[Ale]

Csab, glad you liked it. I tend to dig deep and find details but you are right that there is a lot of guessing. To get back to my jokes, interesting detail is that when I imagine some fictional conversation for example - there is thought "wait, it could have been just like that in reality, maybe they DID talk to each other like that" as we have no conversation recorded not to mention how they really acted or looked etc..

anyway, if there is nothing "important" to be separated personally, i'll use it for some more minor and interesting historical details for now - blog style, but no problem with talking history and sources anytime though I know much more about national medieval

to all readers, digging through some details for own hobby, i found something i didn't know & more closer to today times & related to Catalans. There was their attempted colony on territory of own (today, not then) country in XVIII century, Habsburg loyalist. Intended name for town was Nova (New) Barcelona but idea lasted for few years and it seems Spano-Catalan settlers were few and didn't like the climate, plus plague etc. Having town with such majority would be interesting today and possibly competitive club in CL to challenge old Barcelona : )) ...doubt it would last though, just like "New Serbia" in today Ukraine of similar time didn't last but fun and detail and possibility....

for history lovers I also checked sources of my interest and some claim that (uncheckable) as much as 1500 of their soldiers were here in mid XIV c, hence maybe not that small number for medieval standards (and much more than Cortes had initially)) for correctness to my words, can't cofirm anything

Also for same reason, although I used word "national" above, to clear for those with few interest in medieval history and kids - of course those societies were feudal, "national" is of much later date )

[HexCode]

i recon you like political talks, me not that much.

Fair enough. Now, it's pretty obvious that your professed interests revolve around Serbian medieval history. Are you an academic or a "serious" amateur ? More to the point, are you just interested in "traditional" (i.e., politico-military) history as opposed to, say, cultural history or the history of mentalities ?

The way I read you is that the politics you may be interested in are medieval and not contemporary. Am I right ?

[Ale]

everyone seen today news now trusts me. Vulcans are dangerous, kids. They don't care about pictures and visitors and just "fart" to ruin few cities.... do not tell I didn't warn Napoletans & Campania.

Interest for them (vulcanoes) is due to my Sarmato-Roman roots.

Are you an academic or a "serious" amateur ?

I am an amateur on history i.e. no diploma whatsoever on any subject... Only "educational" reference is that I finished high school with graduate work "Roman kingdom & republic and its enlargement in (today) Italy". Then i passed Roman law subject in higher education, national & European law history as subjects also (hence that trick with "sovereignty" laics do not understand always). Never finished law though so I'm not a man of law, just Roman law ............. When it comes to medieval subject - with personal story - guess my interest started at early age belonging to family from around "city founded by Lazar of Serbia" visiting the place few times and got influenced to get a whole story. Want to this day to have really detailed factual knowledge about the time and often contest and debate some facts I find not "factual", even ready to oppose educated historians Personally think many subjects and events are not properly researched nor understood, some events are hidden and obscured, some blown out of proportions etc. etc. Lastly, yes you can say that I'm also interested in every aspect of medieval political relations and "my personal contribution" is much greater ties and influence of Italian states (esp. Venice) throughout whole Nemanjić era of Serbia, some sources just indicate... as we all know partly due to bad sources, partly due to later events and political developments, different realities, partly due to many science being "democratic" to interpretations - there is not single opinion and guess will not be in lack of solid proofs.

however, only thing I dislike strongly is today politics influencing interpretations of historical events : )

[HexCode]

@ Ale

Want to this day to have really detailed factual knowledge about the time and often contest and debate some facts I find not "factual", even ready to oppose educated historians Personally think many subjects and events are not properly researched nor understood, some events are hidden and obscured, some blown out of proportions etc. etc. ... however, only thing I dislike strongly is today politics influencing interpretations of historical events : )

Why is it important to pursue "objective / factual" history ? What difference does it make ? One immediate answer could be that unearthing "truths" per se is always worthwhile and, probably, welcome as well.

Now, here are two time-honored ideas regarding history's "uses":

1) History either repeats itself or, in any case, reveals unchanging human behavioral patterns. If so, learning from history presumably helps humans in the here and now arrive at useful conclusions and, upon serious reflection, take better actions than otherwise would be the case.

2) History serves to ground, protect and embellish narratives / myths aiming at fostering homogeneity in regards to identity and purposiveness at various societal levels (i.e., imperial, nation-state, nation, regional, local, tribal).

The above may explain the political importance of certain academics who are too eager to conduct the kinds of historical research which clearly serve the interests of the powers that be and, more broadly, of the dominant, interlocking elites...

[lvjtn]

Why is it important to pursue "objective / factual" history ?

a) generic human psychology: fear from the uncertainity / unknown. e.g. if somebody is dying, but the doctors say s/he suffers in abracadabra mambo-jambo disease, the patient tends to calm down. it has a name, so it should be cured or treated

b) "fact" = "obvious" = "shouldn't be discussed", so if somebody can force his/her own perspective/myth to be accepted as a fact, very few will question it, and more importantly, basicaly nobody belives these lunatics (see: it's a "well known fact" that "creating eu made peace for europe" vs. what peace? bosnia, georgia, crimea? and was it really the eu and its ancestor what stopped stalin in 1945 or the american atomic bombs? + losing 15-20% of the soviet population in ww2)

[Ale]

@ Hex

i don't know really.... maybe you are suggesting we should forget about it, outlaw it or something else if there is no point.

what's the point in playing computer game, writing a book, chasing the ball around grassy field in professional way (except making millions for one obvious reason) sexing like pornstar etc. etc. and million of other human activites. I personally don't watch much of TV, for example

I must be honest though and you blew my cover - i have interest in history esp. national because I am nationalistic-imperialistic-be-sure-I'd-rule-you-if-I-could person ......and it's fun (both history and ruling others) Wouldn't run away from detailed Freud examination )

not doing an interview if you wish you could say something personal about yourself, that way it is more friendly than cold philosophy. No time for greater philosophy - good Csaba wants to talk to you ) - just being nice to answer what you asked without philosophy... yes, history is my interest, making interesting movies would be even greater. Why "factual-objective" things matter - for example not to leave kids thinking how Xerxes was monster with 3 heads ) Seriously much less "deep thinker" myself in these years though I do try to think about many things sometimes as a sort of shield from being forced to accept other's way of thinking. Out for now, but I honestly think 2 of you could make much more "deep, philosophical" points to one another....

[HexCode]

... what's the point in playing computer game, writing a book, chasing the ball around grassy field in professional way (except making millions for one obvious reason) sexing like pornstar etc. etc. and million of other human activities.

Well, these are fun pastimes for the most part. For example, besides posting under this topic, I'm methodically documenting many aspects of PGF elsewhere in these forums. Why am I doing it ? First and foremost, I derive some pleasure out of organizing symbolic entities. Secondly, being a private custom content designer, I benefit out of well-organized (especially technical) information that I need to consult from time to time. I could go on and on...

... if you wish you could say something personal about yourself, that way it is more friendly ...

I've had the distinct displeasure of personally witnessing the everyday horrors attributable to two "ethnic communities" living "side-by-side" all over Cyprus. Prior to 1974, the island was being slowly torn apart by competing nation-state nationalisms and big power geopolitics...

No time for greater philosophy - good Csaba wants to talk to you ... I honestly think 2 of you could make much more "deep, philosophical" points to one another ...

The point of this topic is for posters to have fun. However, Csaba and I are no virtual... strangers to one another. We've interacted on many occasions in that "other" Web venue and the matters discussed weren't always... conceptual.

I must be honest though and you blew my cover - i have interest in history esp. national because I am nationalistic-imperialistic-be-sure-I'd-rule-you-if-I-could person ......and it's fun (both history and ruling others) Wouldn't run away from detailed Freud examination )

Before we get down to... psychoanalysis , I'll put a few "things" on the virtual... table so as to enable us to get to the very bottom of the above statement.

Is "Greater Serbia" something that interests you ? If so, would it have to encompass lands currently (?) populated by Serbs only ? Up to this point, "Greater Serbia" could be a textbook nation-state where the ethnic nation and the state are a perfect fit...

However, what if there were minorities inside "Greater Serbia" ? Would one kick them out ? Attempt to somehow change their ethno-cultural identities and allegiances ? Or, perhaps, rule over them as second class subjects ?

Finally, what if "Greater Serbia" were to put their assumed experience in dealing with the above postulated internal minorities to "good use" and invade lands populated by Serb minorities or no Serbs at all ? That would be externally focused expansionism / imperialism by a nation-state, right ?

... i don't know really... maybe you are suggesting we should forget about it, outlaw it or something else if there is no point.

Actually, I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. Csaba and I have already posted on the practical utility of "objective / factual" narratives. I'll add this possibly relevant observation. Once upon a time, high schools in the US and Canada featured history as a subject. A few decades ago, history was "absorbed" into a subject called "social studies".

[Ale]

alright, but not good enough.... yes I'm for "Greater Sarmatia" of course taking over entities like US & Canada. And personal harem full of their girls ) great you and Csaba cooperated - I hope he also cooperated with all "virtual persons" you created..... not my problem at all, nor I care - have fun.

anyway, for those interested in how it works - about narratives, myths you and Csaba touched upon while trying to grab a mike from me... actually - while there is distinction between local myths and more broader "exo-myths" by outsiders from some community - in my experience to counter them by facts you often have to face inaccurate "facts" by outsiders, not just (often unknown) local narratives... for example, it were some Turkish sources who claimed that in some famous battle on Kosovo field against Lazar they faced Germans, Brits, Americans, French, Mexicans etc. in about numbers of 500-600000, while Serb myth (also wrongly dealing with Turkish numbers) more concentrate on relations and (likely fictional for interior political reasons) treason of Branković family army (which fought best and actually broke Turkish flank in front of them, paradoxically).... example 2, it were not Serb sources mentioning great numbers of Spaniards and Germans in Dušan army, they are mentioned by some Bulgarian and some Byzantine sources etc. etc. etc. with possible examples to this day.

so myths and narratives work both ways to put it simple, but of course there is something closer to truth outhere and nothing wrong about investigating and even being unique in ideas if there is source, kids

[HexCode]

... alright, but not good enough ... great you and Csaba cooperated - I hope he also cooperated with all "virtual persons" you created... not my problem at all, nor I care - have fun.

Am I detecting a certain exasperation here ? It seems to me that you desire to find tavern warmth in virtual space. I don't believe this is possible. As I've suggested a few posts back, you may want to deal with the posts' contents themselves, not the virtual man behind them.

By the way, in that "other" Web venue, I was using the ID handle # Spengler #. In these forums, my ID handle is # HexCode #. I deliberately chose a new ID handle hoping for a qualitative improvement in my virtual experience. So far, the virtual pub's very name, this topic and the structure of the forum dedicated to PGF matters agree with me. As for the future, well, it's unknowable...

Finally, most probably you appreciate that your historical research interests are quite specialized and, hence, non-Serbs may not be that interested. Similarly, it would be unreasonable for me to start harping at length on the ins and outs of the 1974 Turkish military intervention in Cyprus hoping to come across posters with a lasting interest in the subject.

P.S.1 I've just noticed that I got a new rank title: "Specialist" in... PGF matters ?

P.S.2 It just occurred to me. Why not launch a brand new topic entitled "Serbian Medieval History" or something similar ?

[Ale]

talking to nobody in person - also make distinction between "myths & narratives" besed on wrong facts often without any malicious intention and as product of either wrong data, mixing data or with intent to make yourself more important, brave or capable than other group, but without in the same time some grossly malicious intent against other group... examples of that are Mackensen attacking Serbia but his fiary tale speech of Serbian soldier, Dušan arrogance to Greek sentiment but in the same time using Greek language and imitating court traditions, some Turk rulers attacking Serbia in XIV & XV c, but at the same time considering them even better enemy than Byzantines etc. etc. etc. in any historical era.

beside that, there are prejudices and lies in historical source with clear malicious intent, which are not product based on wrong/mixed facts nor out "of some respect leading to lies". They are totally opposite of that and have no "positive mental picture" in head of source writer (to many to give any meaningful example, nor there is a need to any reader).... generally, great labirinth of hurdles and challenge to good historical work outhere : )

to Hex - appreciate (if nothing else) your personal detail about Cyprus, Levant etc and Canadian school anecdote ) Can't compare things really nor it's political thing at all nor I look at it as social engineering, just extra knowledge in life and as shield expained before ) Most of us are in historical line (except maybe isolated Icelanders, i say to them as joke "you are as cute as Mickey Mouse but as relevant politically as him")) both aggressors and victims, genocidal and genocide victims - even Canadians historically.... as I said if you are to talk politics, today events, Trump, Erdogan, Stalin (personally and nationally not important name as Soviets just entered and left country) you have my support, but not really someone to talk to...

[HexCode]

Changing the proverbial tack and turning the proverbial page; a good ol' jukebox selection follows, courtesy of Father Time's Jurassic archives......

HEY, WHATCHA GONNA DO ?

Nothing beats the wild variety of inter-cultural fusion phenomena one witnesses in populous, postmodernist mega-cities... This time, "we" are going back to Toronto, Canada.

Back in the 1990s, I came across an Iraqi Shiite who had recently immigrated to Canada from Basra, Iraq. While we were playing backgammon in a cozy, ethnic café, the guy was singing a short tune in a barely audible voice over and over again. It sounded like:

Whatcha gonna do when they come for you?

At the time, I thought that the guy was still afraid, what with Saddam's, murderous henchmen... However, the mumbled lyrics were in... English ! ?

A few years later, I discovered the "educational" power of mainstream TV programming and the tabloids. My "enlightenment" came courtesy of the long running TV series "COPS". I discovered that my friendly backgammon opponent was mumbling the series theme song "Bad Boys"... Here goes an "official" description of "COPS":

This action-packed police show follows real-life law enforcement officers from various regions and departments of the United States, armed with nothing but a television camera to capture their actions as they perform their daily duty "to serve and protect" the public. COPS is about real people and real crime. It was filmed entirely on location with the men and women who work in law enforcement.

Here goes some... "critique":

The majority of the shows deal with small time crimes, like drugs or domestic disputes, crazy traffic violations, drunk drivers, and just basically screwed up people. Like some of the trashier talk shows, a lot of the interest in this show comes from just seeing how messed up some people are. I invariably feel like near royalty after watching an episode of COPS.

A lot has been written about "relative deprivation" in the social sciences. Is it not time for such studies to shift their focus to "relative self-congratulation"? Compared to Basra, Toronto must have been hands down preferable to my friendly backgammon opponent... In any case, "relative self-congratulation" appears to foster societal stability. That said, unlike certain self-assured, magnificent felines, quite a few human females exhibit fanatical adherence to "relative deprivation"... Thank god for shopping centers and credit cards !

[Ale]

... saying in sense - no need (and there wasn't above) to quote my words to make your "points" as your "points" have nothing to do with my words.

i quoted you only once during the whole time and that was to answer your question, which I did. Be civilized. Talking your interest like I did mine is perfectly fine, just no quotes giving false impression of argument about fictional points )

[HexCode]

@ Ale

Quoting you for the very last time:

... saying in sense - no need (and there wasn't above) to quote my words to make your "points" as your "points" have nothing to do with my words.

i quoted you only once during the whole time and that was to answer your question, which I did. Be civilized. Talking your interest like I did mine is perfectly fine, just no quotes giving false impression of argument about fictional points )

It's pretty obvious to me that we just can't interact in good faith. Rest assured that I'll never address you again in any capacity, ever. I believe mutual interaction closure is the best that can be achieved here. Of course, Open Mike is, well, open. It's just that our future posts under this topic, if any, will be parallel and in no way interlocking, at least on my part. That's all.

[lvjtn]

something different lightly connecting to the relative deprivation. as we all know, every generation blames the coming ones for their declining morals, mental and physical capabilities, knowledge, endurance. etc. which doesn't mean this time it isn't true. while our parents and grandparents were able to cope with the hell of ww2 and several crises, there is no guranatee that the millenials (and the coming generations) would survive a single day w/o internet, so the climate change, migration crisis, water shortage, famine, wars for the shrinking resources, etc. will bring the armageddon for them, and the human race will be wiped out of the existence within 30-50y

so far it's a very basic and common prediction. but what are the reasons / explanations? who / what to blame? the fake wellfare based on the debts and credit cards? the unlimited consumerism? the smaller families and increasing individualism? my thesis is that all these factors matter, but the most important factor is the corporate evil called disney. i'm not kidding. i've just read the readers' reviews of Andersen's tales recently and i was shocked when 30y mums wrote that these tales are strange, they differ from the well known disney stories, and if they had known this Andersen guy had written such depressing stories, they wouldn't have read them ever. and that's it. the millenials (+younger generations) will be unable to cope with any crisis, challenge, because the disney lied them to believe in the happy ending and the fairness of the human life. the mute little mermaid can't die unnoticed by her chosen sweetheart, etc. and no, it's not only a first world problem like consumerism. kids living in the most deprivating thirld world slums also watch disney movies, their souls are also compromised. the human race is doomed by disney

@ HexCode: the ranks system is similar to what we had on JP's forums: enlisted ranks (from private to sergeant major) are based on the numbers of posts, while the officer ranks are given by the admins. currently the enlisted ranks are restarted when somebody registers here, but we simply copied the officier ranks from JP (except Juankar, who has been promoted), though maybe you knew it very well and just noticed it

[Radoye]

while our parents and grandparents were able to cope with the hell of ww2 and several crises, there is no guranatee that the millenials (and the coming generations) would survive a single day w/o internet

We thought this was SciFi - actually it's a documentary from the future that somehow traveled back to our time.

[Ale]

point of some possible quote above is for example I say "it was New Barcelona" then some quote and say something about that, add to my words, make a joke, anything similar, or correct/oppose me like "pardon senor, it was New Badalona". Not to use my words into another point and make it look like my words are about that. I tried to put my words as simple as possible, grammatical errors are another unrelated subject... personally I'd reform that language and (for start) kick out many double letters i wrongly place sometimes or not place at all.

anyway, there was no anger nor "do not talk to me ever, ever! again" nor I personally care about emotions in that way. don't care about quotes, if related. i don't even know why i posted all above when it was obvious back at JP that there is nobody interested in old history. boredom at moment of posting? ..... watching Adolf (of Frankfurt) as we speak.

[lvjtn]

We thought [Idiocracy] was SciFi - actually it's a documentary from the future that somehow traveled back to our time.

i'm not sure. i don't really think millenials would be dumber. imo most people in all societies from all periods are "idiots", meaning they don't (didn't / won't) care about their own long term prosperity but follow their primary instincts like children. what i tried to say: millenials seem to be more fragile: their idealism (that's okay, young people should be idealist) easily turns to apathy when they can't reach something within 5 minutes. but it's just my absolutely biased observation

[HexCode]

@ Csaba & Radovan

Civilizational change (evolution ?) can be put under the microscope by identifying a number of contributory tendencies which are, invariably, interactive. Csaba, you've already mentioned a few. You've also paid special attention to the way "life" is being presented to contemporary children.

Challenging young people to face and, hopefully, solve life's problems presupposes a few things. Firstly, young people must recognize the challenges themselves. Secondly, their attention span must be sufficiently long to enable them to solve anything of importance. Thirdly, they should not count on somebody else "magically" coming to their assistance. Fourthly, they should be keenly aware that civilizations are characterized by ever increasing symbolic complexity and material interdependence.

Civilization is manifestly... anti-gravitational. If so, it's always a matter of time before gravity reasserts itself. Why ? Well, no society can withstand the corrosive impact of ever increasing symbolic complexity and material interdependence; especially within the context of mega-cities accommodating millions of inhabitants...

P.S. Attempting to be somewhat humorous...

"Private"... Custom Content Designer
"Specialist"... in PGF Matters

[HexCode]

A good ol' jukebox selection follows, courtesy of Father Time's Jurassic archives......

... Lilith comes into play. The dark, mysterious, fascinating, totally sexy antagonist, drama queen extraordinaire, breaker and eater of male hearts and souls. She's all you ever wanted, confess it ! You want this darkness, you want this pain, you want this decline ! Because you are a fool, you're blind, you never had a choice, you never had a chance to know anything else beyond the subdivision of black and white when it was most important. And now it's too late.

AND

Good ol' Mephisto would claim that Paradise University is in dire need of heretical discourse. All worthwhile debates start off with healthy doses of intellectual... negation. Sometimes, Mephisto's schedule gets too crowded. In those instances, he calls upon Lilith to do the... academic honors. Lilith is always happy to oblige. However, on each and every such occasion, she does insist that the podium's height never interferes with the audience's ability to marvel at the treasures her expertly chosen, low cut dress barely conceals. Lilith is an expert at stacking the conceptual deck in her favor, right ? After all, she IS, well, ... stacked !