history & modernity, my historical notes

[Ale]

...even Ras (the ruin of not some looks)) is added to UNESCO heritage site, wow. Well I know a lot about all things and city and its importance (whose glory reached even Dante)) but really must admit I didn't know that it per se is also WH site, protected by (quasi) whole humanity ...or i forgot, or neglected that detail. So yes great detail and "honour" really hats of to that to the world for once, for us medieval history lovers it trully is great honor, again... give it importance and that our med history was not "in vain" not unheard of.

but really want to - regarding "Albanian bad luck" to say so, even if today maybe me are even in worse position, not talking about economy at all but in a sense that they are here long and we only temporar migrants but with so many UNESCO sites and already for decades and they have none ; but really for some historical correctness... simply people having some knowledge or skill should do soem positive things sometimes and de-escalate but staying realistic... so - if we disregard theory about Preljub's origin which i don't base only on name but that he often commanded Albanians and maybe knew language - really history must not be "too hateful"... so few lines reader to understand how "positive story" about one Albanian was... in short - in times when everybody "disliked" (some envied because he was "richest man of Europe" by French De Brokijer Đurađ aka George Branković, our last glorious ruler of not royal nor imperial shine (just despot) and when even some proto-Montenegro tribes saw their chance to rebel against him (plastic description of situation enough) one Albanian (even catholic) nobleman, Ragusa (Dubrovnik) and partly Venice were only ready to help him and give some support... "Sapienti sat" as we Thracians who formed Rome via Serbius Tullius say, and really without humor of who helped him... so don't buy ever that "all Albanians were always against Serbs or similar" this is great story... Not only that that particular Albanian (Špani/Span) rode in his entourage giving him extra protection while he fled ftom Turks, but he also organised some guerillas and served as George's contact with army crew of besieged Novo Brdo... think such stories are worth telling and honorable, so i insisited... of course our churches/castles are ours and Albanians know that Kosovo is Serb word they accepted, but it has nothing to do with politics it is important story not to be biased and think it is powerful story (plus maybe, just maybe Preljub whome Dušan trusted very much and thought highly about him... simply he knew Albanian which very few Serbs knew so suscpicion)

[Ale]

...really no action so to continue with my fun and info posts... but i think i'll finish with this one with one addition...

Man i mentioned (yes, it is not nice to translate names)) is, btw, Bertrandon de la Broquiere if you are serious reader, even quasi historian or something and can find original - Burgundian, is it PC to say French? traveler, writer, adventurer, spy, diplomat and whatever needed... very nice lines about already dying Serbia, for us almost as valuable as fra Mauro map (Venetian so maybe biased as they were mostly our pals during period, giving citizenship to almost all rulers)... to continue with some positive things this time for eventual French readers - maybe you heard, maybe not but his lines were most likely main inspiration for (I'd say) some effective jokes from our recent history, just because he was "French" (to generalize) i.e. from one powerful country... namely, he was - although our George was indeed rich and able, but as seen not able enough militarily - inspiration for that lines you maybe even heard (like Srbija do Tokija) like (Frenchmen) said our rulers were richest, "golden fork" George and similar One of the reasons - while nobody negates Branković family power and economic muscle, maybe base of last period of med Serbia... btw, he was grandson of that Branko whose belt finished in London for now? and with Asian dragon - anyway, to continue thought one of reasons possible was that while many castles were pretty old, centuries old by then, George greeted and talked with Bertrand in brand new all shiny then Smederevo castle/fort built just recently. So you now, new house, new horses and he was impressed While Bertrand (sometimes writen like that in our texts) was totally unaware he created some iconic lines, generally nice episode with Frenchman and obviously he liked George as well, when many disliked him kudos for short but almost legendary description from "France"

think i finish this block of always fun and substantial subjects now, but as seen my passion...

[Ale]

...club events made me look more, but also because i see that even BBC reported last evening about Serbia and very important opinion and political cut of "Vlad the T-shirt seller" i'm thinking maybe people are interested in few thoughts on what's happening, but that after first paragraph... I'm fair man and i like satire, our stronger points compared to many nations (not all nor we are special) and always present self-criticism - and am with deep knowledge and self-sure - and will say that i looked at article and it was properly "coloured" but full of things that totally are "something" and written by Albanian author - with wrongly written every name which is not also aestetics it is also question of how to find such figures if names are wrong ; I talked few times to Albanians (not many) and i say only this on history: "we enter Kosovo (very nice for accepting our name and not from your language, honor) in 1913 and leave it - with war and crimes "of course" there was much of them in many places around globe, even where it changed landscape forever - and leave it in 1999, but fact is that it stayed with almost as many Albanians as country Albania." our president from the 90s lost election and ended in jail - i respect UN but do not idolize nor i think it is "super", it is best way of dealing with things... are we something special or unseen, not really and first country that got into conflict beleiving it can successfully use force to preserve some position, not really... we ended in Serbia, where we started. We were there 86 years in modern history and hardly erased population for all that time and French magazines have pictures of our enterance of Kosovo in 1913 and how population looked like there and how rich or not... old history is forgotten, but for us cool, and lets take is as great subject and good one for films. We are not in war and armed conflict with anyone and cannot be as actually we are weaker side and not part of any alliances... so any fear of "us invading" is unrealistic... btw, I am medievalist so i like it more than average person, but it is not obligation to like it. as i said very interested of any finding in Albania, maybe something could be "revolutionary" new for us as well... proud of our med achievements considering esp. that we migrated to region and ended "famous" and today "big" nation in region (it all happened without Russia, blame the Venice) Albanians are maybe proud of other things - but I'm also honest and say to Albanians that i never really eqalized destiny of our country with our relations with Albania nor it is only subject for me - hopefully you too, i say. digresion, as i already said "region" - for us through whole history "region" is something different than it is (for example) for Bosnia, surrounded with 2 countries. In middle ages, in XIX century it was much more important factor our relation with Bulgaria, Hungary, Romea and later Greece so for us region always been something else, historically... end of digresion. actually those fatalist or I don't know what, should know that country was there and had diplomatic relations with most powerful nations of the era already in XIX c (with very different borders)... for positive talking i say hats off to Albanians - i also say jokingly - for being united in some way in last century maybe, while we are confused as amny times and i give them example of our greatest medieval figure and say "...but it is shame for us that in Belgrade there was confusion after great archeological find i.e. his remains and in decades later and we didn't even know where to put him until Marko's church was chosen". i say shame as it could've given many answers much before all to solving mystery of death, to confirming sources of incredible height and look as most banal etc etc not to say that we are talking rare person who almost got "double anathema" by two most powerful christian churches etc. i'm giving example of own interest, which has nothing with politics, Brits are good example that science never stopped, they even made plays and films during both wars... (of course they had luxury of isolation). now, where I agree with BBC article - that whole situation is "artificially created" and tensions imported not because something spectacular in Albania nor Serbia, nor new as 15 years passed indeed... it must be something else in world... ; (quite honestly as well i was one of the supporters of idea of "borders change" somewhere around Montenegro referendum time - was there also "genocide or war or violence" but they also voted ; - between Serbia and Albania in agreement, but is over now and we have to do as is offered... it is not about any "prince Lazar (quasi) pledge" not about mysticism or third, simply many of us do not see Kosovo as something that was state like Bosnia, Montenegro (autonomous before Serbia in modern times) and similar and our idea was to change borders and only 2 states to remain, Serbia and Albania... no problem to say it, even if obsolete now - from (quasi it exists in fiction and many broken) intern. law point...

and here i come to the maybe more important point for foreigners - really what is happening politically today... most honestly, don't know It is, in short "political chaos" but not real thankfully and life is "normal" but is again some confusion and you all know around the world what is main "ingredient". I don't know what to say to foreigners really if question is what is happening - I only comment "will we the Serbs (actually all citizens of country which is more diverse than many around, pardon) fell so low to depend on events and questions of other nations"... yes there is some confusion, there are more Russians than ever, more even than after 1919 around although not as high profile as Wrangel or Bermondt-Avalov or anyone, and even they did not involve in graffiti and poisoning domestic sphere and they went... btw, respect to great peoples and most helpful for us not to be erased and to stand up again, (but also since we are talking BBC mention) with Britain i.e. Victoria, just look how many our decorations she had And also France... and Venice of course! And of course Greece as Greece said we are Thracians, sons of Tullius and Spartacus, which gave us strength to conquer them. but even more than others, in that sense i said in other threads that most precious thing one can give for other tribe is life and (it is fact) in modern history most foreigners that died here are from those countries collectivelly (Russia, Ukraine, Belarus today) but we also had volunteer Latvian legions for example, drunk Scots, and many more and respect is given for that part. End of story, but today is today. i said in threads also that 1914 was "knightly move" by man (who ended bad) but is far history.

In short today - nobody knows what president think, i joked with him many times because of other things, not because of EE or Kosovo issue - one claim he is "traitor", other "pro-Russian" third "pro-else" he himself that he is "wolf" (really he said that recently, aiming at our animalistic tribal symbol) totally btw, also seen article and "wolf" (i'm sensitive) stays in top of male given names here, so ancient i like ; .... anyway back to subject, not easy for him i agree and i would never be good politician. Guess he never expected Russia war when he decided to go as "main political figure" decade+ ago Besides he is just ceremonial figure, what about govt, parliament, political parties that gave birth to some of excellent diplomats of XIX?

further today, there are some Wagner-tones really what Wagner has to do with anti-fascism and so on and on... tiresome and confusing and one must really say/ask is that all our subject, so what am i to say realistically on other's subjects... further maybe there is going to be visa-regime for Russia by some claims... further, some claim themselves and write how Serbia is preparing sanctions and it is near... further, our president talked yesterday with Blinken in Minchen (Munchy) and also with others. Conclusion was "that relations are better every day, very good". if not fake news... Really and with irony giving fast image of how it is... also British FM talks (also ex-country what will they do without Scotland, mamma mia - which is btw incomparable with our situation as we must recognize other country of the nation which is already self-determined and so on) etc etc.... so nothing dramatic if talks are regular and Blinken had no special message nor reaction, for example, not because 300-400 millions are most important on planet of some 8 billions as i said many times, people are too "US-obsessed" and i intentionally try to avoid it - but you must admit that even in this thread I gave some interesting facts and how we followed US interventionist policies in some diplomatic moves once upon a time and that USA totally opened "its sphere" to us when it did not do that to all, think it was good/fair part of my thread with many humor... back to theme, you have to (for example) have children in Serbia (or work, live, buy something etc)... "good news" for all is that even Sweden, Switzerland nor Japan don't have kids ; ....As some description of some confusion and situation and really is like that i.e. totally unknown or third option of your choice, but that's it in short. my message to all is "leave glorious mother Serbia alone" - and another message "do not fight your wars on our streets". To our "characters" and all population - clear something with yourselves first - for example, basic interests. but i must say that world is changing and main voice must be younger people, beleive me when i was younger never was the case someone caring for internet post as banal difference and so on and on so even i'm too old to know every need... also i respect every country, but simply would never say nor allow that we (older brother to many and even, to go far, second after Bulgaria as autocephalos in many ways, patriarchy, even empire) tie (quasi) our destiny with Ukraine nor allow to be (quasi) related to Moldova events etc etc as simply those are not countries we ever changed govts or direction in...

as i said many times, do join, like to hear about Moldova for example, just like i was about Thailand, but maybe too far or unrealistically to expect that people from there are reading such place... no time for "social media" but some opinion, even link, even once per week is better... i find history super interesting and found many answers when i "re-researched" it myself... do not be turned off by forum look, Luis opened pub as place for that and theme is because of game... as for geopolitics i'll cite Mazzini (one of first with some ideas of integration) - Serbs not only are Europe, but they also created it. (and Rome as well, he added)... i don't see any trouble with that, actually we were also part of some early integrations in monetary, economic, sphere 130 years ago etc. sometimes intentionally use historical references just because, to show "why are we different situation than most others" (as was question on BBC), well because we are. and i intentionally started with mistakes from 1913 and further (Yugoslavia maybe greatest instead of focusing in calming and talking with others first) etc etc not because it is most important for all others. And why we think many things are "out of proportion" historically... and really, really have no idea what's in others heads and what is preventing them to take their place in some processes for decades (processes we did take part in, btw)... personally i mind not to be related to other countries, whole Moldavia episode inspired me to compile some things... so it is some compilation as post. But do join... in most part wanted to summarize some things and how "chaotic" it is and how "flicked"... opinions and my tone is mine only, history not most important, maybe short... how did we get here. it is BBC after all.. ;

[Bombast the Blue]

...Serbs not only are Europe, but they also created it. (and Rome as well, he added)...

As all the others, throughout history...
It is precisely that multiplicity in the European identity that is so hard to understand from those who look "from outside".
And some who are really "inside" have not yet come to terms with.
Unfortunately that is the case with Russia.
They just cannot come to terms with the fact that they are Europeans too.
They still prefer the notion that Europe is their backyard.
And so they are starting the Third European Civil War...

As to the US, I was never crazy about their foreign policy, but I must admit that for the third time they are putting up with Europe's unfinished business.

The question of choosing sides...
For both my "rational" analysis and very personal factors I have absolutely no doubts about my choice.
If I could have still any doubts they would have been blown away by claims about "a new Eurasian order from Vladivostok to Lisbon"
I'm just some 30km from Lisbon... so... I consider myself under threat...

There is of course a "third choice".
I'm just not sure that circumstances in a medium term future will allow "third choicers" to remain where they want to be.
After all, to reach from Vladivostock to Lisbon it is necessary to go through all the rest.

[Ale]

...since mentioned, think this is "interesting" episode (not so much if we consider who was around, some say even Japanese) and in case i never told it before - maybe in sport thread i think, almost remember how i talked about Latvia (and Lithuania) sharing some "fast learning of basket" with us - maybe even faster in fact as they popularised it earlier than us (we are pardoned as our country was less functional between w-wars than smaller and "functional" L&L, pardon for shortening) but we "perfected it later" having many medals later as "de facto" if not "de jure" Serbia... but i'm ready to say that Baltic states (pardon again i don't like any groupings but without any intent...) maybe are those that like basket maybe more as we had really "dinasty" in many team sports... and we share with Li-La ; unusual characters in alphabet... quite possibly maybe other things, but as i said most likely we are "Scyth" by old-ghenesis in some times, not Uralic. Interesting is fact that DNK results about which i talked few times showed that Serbia indeed is only in region having some "bigger" (around 3% iirc, unimportant really) haplogroup present the most in Finland, even Hungary (by that result) did not have such number... but again maybe not "ancient" thing, maybe just some settlement from there in XIX c.... anyway, to subject

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrejs_Pumpurs

this is "most famous guy" from Latvia who fought in Serbia in that times i mentioned... complete story is that maybe 200-300 Latvians in total fought in some unit, about other wars unknown but not impossible... now, while some books even gatherings did take place to commemorate (for example) Scots or others, think it is nice idea or maybe "gathering reason" (even for 5-10 people from embassy)) to sometimes do that... generally not some ties with Latvia, here's one ; As i said, interesting Latvians indeed... almost as interesting as our emperor having Teutonic (possible) capitain in XIV, as much as Bermondt & Wrangel "liking" Serbia (considering roots) and considering our differences in mentality and style. Do Latvians laugh? Like history for all those tiny details that make it... of course for dumber not some idolization of any charcaters, nor any importance today nor much then... Doubt Wrangel would support my team if alive and is far history... Riga is bigger city in region if unknown, btw so gaining some "reason to gather there" or "tie" is plus, so i mention... but unimportant except for history lovers... "arenas" are usually "hot"

[Bombast the Blue]

further today, there are some Wagner-tones really what Wagner has to do with anti-fascism and so on and on... tiresome and confusing

"Good" propaganda is designed to be tiresome to the point people just stop thinking anytime they listen... again... and again... and again...
But the "we are fighting nazis" point is not a tiny bit confusing.

Telegraphic version.
When listening to Russian propaganda just replace "nazi" with "democrat" and all will start to fall in place.

Summarized version.
Ukraine is very much integrated with Russia in various levels.
That there were historical periods in which they were "together" as a country is well known.
Nowadays it starts with the fact there are a lot of "mixed" families. Marriages between Ukrainians and Russians.
And the more we go east in Ukraine the more populations are themselves "mixed".
In part by more natural processes, in part due to the forced migrations typical in certain periods of the Soviet Union.

Unfortunately or not..., while Russia progressively chose to veer away from "the West", a good deal of Ukrainians chose to veer towards "the West".
Ukrainians, Georgians, Moldovans, Belarussians and probably more I do not remember watched as Russia returned to old ways and naturally many people resorted to trying to approach their countries to "the West"... while they had a country.

In the various cases we saw what Russia's answer was.
And "the West's" mistake of doing absolutely nothing.
Except meaningless "sanctions".

In the case of Ukraine, a big country full of resources, it is plain to see that their European integration would bring a substantial potential for progress.
That would be witnessed by huge amounts of Russians due to the many inter relations between the two peoples.
And pretty soon the everyday Russian would be asking for the same recipe.
But that would require a democratic regime...

Reason why they say they are fighting for survival.
Or to put it as it is really happening: they are spending their own people and Ukraine's to prevent their same people getting any near the idea of wanting a democratic leadership Which would mean "unemployment" for them.
Russia as a country, or the Russian people they know very well have nothing to fear from the rest of Europe.

Of course, it would not "glue" if they blared to the four winds that they were fighting "democracies".
It would have to be "nazis"...

Although at the same time they have no shred of shame of telling to their people that "the West is putting nazi ideas in Ukrainian minds under the form of a desire for freedom and European integration".

Here's how "desire for freedom" becomes "nazism"...

[Ale]

...generally my friend, not "good time" nor "relaxed time" for all those historical subjects from that region, which we might find "super interesting", but why not, actually always is good time for some info... yes indeed Kijevan Rus' is huge subject... where it touches us (only for history) is presence of those haplogroups, even "Viking" in us but i'm of the "scientific current" about "Scyth" tribo-ghenesis due to linguistical reasons and we preserving such words - "hvala" (thanks) "kazna" (punishment) "S'rbi" (which is Serbo-Croat only name, most others put "e" which is subject i'll touch...) etc etc quite tens. As said found in Sanskrit... about linguistical puzzles, surces may vary and may be influenced by external factors, like famous "Tribalism" (even "Black George" played with it on flag etc) i.e. Thracian tie, which surely is not true for "old Serbs"... my theory (not fiction) is that indeed might be possible that old (Balkan) Serbs are indeed some "higher caste" or "special force" and maybe as small tribe arrived later among Balkan Slavs, already mixed themselves in East Europe... various sources (we are talking centuries that passed!) have some confusion, while we do not have them. there is also maybe possible confusion with "Sexon Serbs" (in Poland, Czech and Germany) who call themselves "Serbi" but might be not related to us at all i.e. old "Black Serbs" reinforcing from east... many Slavic tribes believed it is maybe same tribe, while maybe isn't even in connection... etc etc etc. Hope you understand in short although i talked it before - but only for history lovers and of course Bjeločka is our sister

anyway, wasn't my main subject as post wanted a bit lighter subject, but true... found that also 5-6 (not only Treuland, mentioned in article) persons working in "drafting" Latvians for Serbia were also Latvians of German origin and with changed names ; ...it is super interesting so half-joke half-truth (based on that fact), "teutonic love" and similar, Prussian elites etc. (at least few) could be said as extraordinary interesting detail that Serbs did have some "respect" among Baltic nations esp. Baltic Germans by roots and that was what i aimed at as detail and is solid for humor considering our later fights AND maybe not unique as in time of XIX c many looked at Serbs "as fairytale tribe"...for clarity - what have we found out, unrelated with joke - is that i mentioned "Teutonic captain" but for precision (someone not to interpretated my words wrongly) he was possible member of order later, while not Baltic born German himself, was Austrian... however his 300 maybe had some Baltics inthere.... except clear jokes or punches i have, hope my historical details are nice

most likely out of subjects for some time, generally those are nice ones but i try to maximally shorten it which might confuse people... never use pure fiction in my words, always trying some connections and "indeed factor" ;

[Ale]

...from article i mentioned - think this is good subject - only remember (too unimportant to ever search for it again) that 3 most popular male names for kids (from last year i think, also forgot) were Luka, Lazar & Vuk, in that order... while Lazar and Vuk are heroes from battle ; (plus Vuk being eternal symbol of us) I only ask who the hell is Luka?!

really remembered just that first 3 and sadly only for boys... generally interesting subject and - while not expecting - could be put as some question to various nations if you know the data, how it looked like in your countries, more as cultural exchange than some importance ; ...Moldavia, Russia, Ukraine, Latvia etc. generally intersted in such things and views in cultural things or history... i already talked before in some thread about names and how realtively late some names penetrated Serbs from your regions, likely, while weren't present here i.e. concretely among Serbs - and we never had many Aleksanders and Borises esp. in middle ages Ivan is also later (our being Jovan) one of exceptions was indeed Waldemar there was in early states i.e. Vladimir indeed and few others... was there some Branko, Dušan, Pribac, Hrelja, Baldovin, Bran, Altoman, Preljub etc. maybe i forgot some interesting, among you ....interesting subject, but let's stay as question of if you know what are say 3 most pop male names from last year, even if unimportant... could be said that we preserved some "originality" as Vuk and Lazar are hard to find in your countries, if you drop by (and girl))

[Ale]

...our ruler - not to say despot but that was just Romean-Byzant title equal maybe to king i.e. bellow emperor, always mind that - so our despot Đurađ aka George "Golden fork", was also involved in story about relics or remains (or quasi ones but accepted) of Luka/Luca (saint) and in a way so typical for him... i.e. using his deep pockets not muscle... he bought it from Otto-Turks for headaching amount of gold ducats and - honestly forgot the details - it finished in Venice, forgot was it by him giving it to them (as quasi ally) or they re-bought from him, or he "brokered" for them or they ended in Venice after his death (like some lands as well))... in any way, our George was indeed some name - some estimates not even close to knowing whole story and impossible to know really, taken into consideration anual tributes, "premies", special demands, transactions, relic buying, ransoms for Greeks etc. etc. etc. go as far as saying that George "operated" with millions of gold ducats in that direction, at least many hundreds of thousands he gave before final conquest... and that's only one direction so how much money that man had is enigma. Venetians are no fools for Interesting figure George, but merely shadow of kingdo-empire "might"... anyway other subject, Altoman is indeed among more interesting (considering his father being "usual" noble Vojin) but esp. 1300-1355 had real combination of all sort of names.

anyway, seen some "controversy" about who gave humanitarian aid to Ukraine and some "jingle" or "spot" from their TV who gave etc and instantlly remembered Đurađ aka George (well i always have to do this). doubt that, if true, was intentional on their "jingle" but since i already talked about modern days, here is some map of who gave hum. aid to them (Montenegro was also mistakenly not on "map" so mistake... Source "atlantic council" - and don't have idea what is that as way as "north atlantic council" but let's say source, for any casual readers from there... probably we are not champions of any help nor it is honestly so important as subject, but to cut "controversies" Serbia, Montenegro did send hum. aid to organisations for displaced, even state but probably not massive (it's secret and in "transhizes" so not one time)... generally will not involve much in political, but for historical or similar always open if some interest and if i remember some historical details worth joking or mentioning...

[Bombast the Blue]

3 most popular male names for kids

Probably not much to do with names much more to the east of my close neighbourhood, there is a pair of lists with the top ten boys and girls chosen names in 2022 going around.
Francisco is number one 2022 chosen boy's name. Maria is number one for girls.
Analysis - Religion rules. Pope Francis and Mary Mother of Jesus need no introductions around here.
Afonso and Alice come in second.
Well, Afonso is popular here since at least the XII th century when Afonso Henriques became the first king of Portugal. No idea about Alice.
João and Leonor come in third.
João is both a biblical name and one adopted by 6 Portuguese kings. Leonor is also a name associable with royal figures.
So... interesting! A good deal of the top three names for local boys and girls may be associated with catholic religion and / or royal inspiration.
Conscious or not so? Maybe from "collective conscience" / phylogenetics? Or is it that kings adopted common names of their time?
A more detailed poll would be needed...
Certain is that more names down the top ten share the same characteristics.
As to more "eastern sounding" names I can see none in the top tens.
But there are some Portuguese with names like:
Vladimiro
Yuri
Ivan
Natacha - (Natasha is possible but not the intuitive / traditional way of representing that sound around here)
Olga (in this case since long)
Irina
We even have a few Lenines but I never heard about any Stalin.
"Blame" the Portuguese Communist Party... for (most of) those names.

[Ale]

eheey, thanks very much my friend - believe me i totally missed this post of yours, but thanks very much - exactly the type of things i like and interested in. Thanks for "longish" answer again and totally spot on hope you like my Luka, Lazar and Vuk again if text i've read are true, i'm of opinion that today parents are trying to be "easy for global public audince" with names, but again super glad that namely Vuk survived, not so great as name but so ancient and simply our tribal name....

...but let's deal today - forgetting far nations we have nothing to do with like above ) - with this other subject i liked very, many much ; and back to natural sisters of Italy etc... as continuation from other thread and something i mentioned, and work of Gabriele D'Annunzio and his "ode to Serbian nation" he wrote in late 1915 but planned since birth as life work, just was convinient moment then ; ... no, we will not deal with it per se, incredible well informed and touching work, personally above "Aeneis" or Homer's work but maybe you did not know that he also left notes below or beside the poem itself, aiming at less educated readers etc. Written by his shaky hand, recognizable, maybe even his blood, still argued.... ) Most seriously, great work and shockingly well-informed if we consider that it wasn't time of mass-histeria... pardon media & internet and trully thumbs up to him, not known if he ever visited BUT if you are Italian historian or even art historian and similar (some Eco-like, female under... hehe, 40-30)) I'm dying to hear if there is any logical/historical explain how he knew so much and hills names etc. Most seriously... but I'll not deal with work and oda, but his notes are interesting and as medievalist i'll share what he wrote about medieval history... right away I can help and tell that he was reading a lot of our epic poetry, confirming that it was almost "must" for European (from Norway to Turkey indeed, mostly in Italian schools then)) poetic elite for decades, but also his obvious interest... Sadly, it is not history and a lot is to research still, but let's see what he wrote, also knowing history I guess... I'll translate Italian but really in free style, while i don't speak it.

(btw I have this text prepared from before so did not write all at once ; ...there are also notes about more modern history, he spoke about Karageorge, Miloš and how they should have been Italian allies, he even says how they are almost "our" Italian figures etc. but this is interesting for me, medievalist - i think predominantely for domestic readers, but why not to all...)

First, he explained HIM Dušan, of course:

Stefano soprannominato Dusciano dalle molte pie elemosine che fece (nell'anno 1346 pur al nostro santuario di San Nicola di Bari donò una rendita di dugento perperi in continuo per la cera) fu della stirpe nemànide quegli “che coronò la grandezza del nome serbico e forse ne preparò la ruina”. Silni fu chiamato dal popol suo, cioè il Possente; e nella ragunata dell'anno 1340, in Scoplia, gridato cesare dei Serbi, dei Bulgari, dei Greci, e “primogenito di Cristo”.

He says: Stefan, known/nicked (more middle name) Dušano with his many pius dids (he also donated many money/perpers in 1346 to our church in Bari, shortly) was from "Nemnide dynasty" and (he added) "crowned grandeur of serb name/tribe and was prologue of its ruin" (lie). Was known as mighty (he wrote it in both our and Latin so longer sentence) in his people eyes (and foreigners maybe more, i add) and in summit in Skopje in 1340 (sadly not right year by him) he crowned as caesar (his words) of Serbs, Bulgars and Greeks, "firstborn of Christ" (and Albanians, Romeans etc. in sources but Gabriele did not want to tell that))... OK that's first para i chose, sadly he did not knew details about 2,15 as he would then truly understand the nick...

There is paragraph about Lazar as well, but I'll not post it as there is nothing historical to discuss there as Gaby mostly discuss his "noble wife" and his death, "head that radiates after chopping" and where he was burried (Ravanizza) etc.

next he mentiones "Jug Bogdan", probably historical Vratko Nemanjić from Vukan line (who was oldest son of Nemanja but lost crown to younger brother who married Ana Dandola etc.) He doesn't speak that, talks shortly about "Jug Bogdan" and myth of many quasi-sons etc. So he was reading poetry...

next is interesting again - he talks about Vukašin. Too bad i canćt question him as i "lead" investigation about events and his death, maybe Gabriele knew interesting details... however he said this:

Vucàssino ammazzato il pio imperatore Urosio figliuolo del grande Stefano, usurpò il regno; ed ebbe titolo di despota in prima, poi di re di Serbia e di Romania. Guerreggiò sempre, in vicenda di vittorie e di sconfitte; e trovò morte alfine in battaglia campale, affogato nella Màriza sanguinosa (1372)

Vukašin killed pious emperor Uroš (the weak), son of mentioned Dušan, usurped the throne, titled himself despot, then king of "Serbia and Romania" (Romea). Warlike always, victories and defeats, died in tough battle finally, drawned in bloody Marizza..... my addition - very interesting, talk us about it As i talked, very controversial details and unknown - of course he also mentioned wrong year of death, but who knows maybe he is right ...but i like that - he killed Uroš "the weak" by Gabriele, while he survived the battle by Turks.... interesting event, would like to put light on it but hopeless... Vukašin intrigued many, but doubt that he was main "traitor" and always disliked Dušan's half-brother Simeon/Siniša who separated before, blamed him always even for father sudden death... and the buttler

next he talks "longer" about Marko (Vukašin's son, also mythical and unclear figure, maybe fake)) and his place in epic poetry, nothing historical there... Gabriele (as he said) liked the most poem in which Marko is asked "to whome empire belongs?" and Marko in front of shocked father and uncles says "to emperor Uroš, not you"

next, he mentiones Italian girls as queens and one our in Florence, quite unimportant, just to show who they were in his poem:

Le patrizie veneziane Anna Dandolo (1217-1221) e Costanza Morosini (1321)furono regine di Serbia: e il patrizio fiorentino Esaù de' Buondelmonti (1386-1403) sposò una donzella della Stirpe regia di Orosia.

Patrician Ana Dandolo and Constanca Morosini (both Venetian) were queens of Serbia, while florentine noble had wife from Nemanjić dynasty, shortly.... of course while true (Constanca, wife of some unrecognized king in northern Serbia wasn't recognized as queen as powerful Milutin took the power from older brother and his son claimed the throne, leading to his grandson Dušan taking it in consequence - must say rightful events as without them we would maybe not have such iconic emperor and all events) while true again of course Gabriele did not mention other Italian wives here, just some "selected important"... quite possible Vukan's wife was from Latium old nobility. And many lesser nobles had Italian girls, Gabriele did not mention.........

also, sadly he did not mention Dante using dinars in his poem, something some historians here and in Italy suspect but not important... as said great, shockingly detailed work written without preparation as D'Annunzio knew all that from his head, so impressive... he was from central Italy, btw. hope you liked also my (only selected) paras with some humopr and what he knew about controversies. work is easy to find - again if you know possibly how he knew so many details or some background, i'm dying to hear...

[Ale]

...I will underline (for historical interest and seriously) that formulation "firstborn of Christ" ;

while (mind that) maybe not specific, certainly not ususal and something all kings used in Europe of moment... if we consider controversies, time, Dušan's clash with Avignon and all & talked about in fragments - it may explain things like Umberto Eco's interest in our history as well (well informed as many Italians), may explain indeed presence of templars in here, maybe Dušan's surroundings and maybe intent to provoke in similar manner as "Branko's belt" (important in Dušan's inner circle, also always mind that) or some exterior of, for example, High Dečani monastic church - again, important finished and supervised by Dušan (while his father's choice) with Italian cooperation etc... as I said few times Dušan was figure far above usual picture, really aimed at continental level and his unusaul "double anathema" or "heresy" shows that... could be said that he added to all contemporar controversies or jokes, that made into some books or films... likable story, and part of my sympathy, not the conquest per se so much, although probably important and not ignorable...

about Italians again, very glad that some/many there recognized that and that we left some mutual touch in those times... simply it is "old imperial country" that gave us letters if nothing else, not to mention that all competed to give some "Roman right" in themselves (who could indeed, so only for powerful nations))... of course Greeks also important, but our med history was specific in that sense that we balanced probably more leaning towards "wold of sons" ; ...as simply Romea (not Greece, Serbs mostly said Romea) was something to "grab or to succeed" ...but forget that - was about wanting to put attention on Dušan's "daring" if we know all templar clash, Avignon "explosion", French kings owing us money and similar so about that...

(unrelated, but there is myth or maybe truth - he quasi-said that to own generals in private - that Napoleon respected only "Serb army" more on continent... he was also distantly Italian)

[Ale]

... after refreshing memory - not only "distantly Italian" but in a mix of 2 interesting regions, historically for us (Napoleon)... paternally from Tuscany, "our Tuscany" of Dante, Serb dinars, Nemanides, mercs etc ) so easy to guess that little Nabulione grew up listening and reading our epic poetry and was "our man" BUT also maternally from Genova - our old medieval "enemy" ; and as Napoleon admitted his mother was "main figure" so it decided later in his mind and person so he did not help us .....but of course, his conscience "bite him" whole life and he said what he said, knowing that he couldn't forget us...

Also to remind, since i mentioned personal blame or suspicion aimed at Simeon/Siniša and "the butler" ....well, the butler was no less than Lazar himself ........... think about it. Seriously, he just started to do the duty as young man on Dušan's court which had something to do with title "cup bearer" and generally with ceremony at imperial table and kitchen and was maybe a lot around "caesar" and inner circle of him, having access to emperor's wine ... he, by some sources started to do that duty (which was also some administrative but called "stavilac" at royal table) exactly in the year of Dušan's death as some 20 y/o young man....very interesting, but of course we are joking - nothing to indicate brave Lazar's guilt but just great story as many and his father Pribac was not some special "glory hunter" having higher title "logothete" since Dečanski and (arguably) supported Dušan's rise and rule since day one of clash with father ; ...so while I put it as interesting detail, no indications that Dušan would be "backstabbed" from that family and Lazar's position just intriguing in year of emperor's death..... great stories, great historical details with great drama and a lot of "hollywood like" (Gladiator) treachery, action and murky characters to which Turks also added, sadly we do not have such powerful film industry, as themes are good are "imperial"...

also wanted to correct my typo "wold of sons" wanted to say "wolf of sons" comically not to say "sons of wolf" ...have fun, obviously meds my passion, not sure how interesting wider but we have a lot to investigate, but moslty finished... again it is not about size, it is substance and things like printing dinars (denarii), having "caesars" doing it with Italians and Greeks, give it nice sounding and "greatness". this more comical but intruguing as always post + typo correction... while forum is small and i had no real public (except Bombast)) do join and if you can, free to help with some things like Gabriele, Bertrand or where is "holy grail" we once had in possession ;

[Ale]

incredible, two emperors, two caesars even more, Dušano and Nabulione - 500 years between them and whole 50 centimeters, eh )... I don't know - looked at some opinions and whole English text, while wiki doesn't mention and is right about that as there was no external reason for start of our revolution i.e. national uprising as it started due to actions of Turks... BUT i would say that without actions of Napoleon it would maybe not start in such extent maybe not at all, news of his actions in Italy and taking power in Paris did reflect here and it started in same year as him preparing coronation... letters were sent to him, many expected from Italian first, French second (and Corsican) maybe to react. so yes, could be said that indirectly our uprising was also "consequence of him" in that paragraph... at least Garibaldi did ; ...but really doesn't matter someone not to think that anyone cares now just as probable addition to "influence outside France" para, initially it was although later he ruined both us and Venice, daughter... later it was other story and Karageorge's last words were "wish i could pass Nabulione through my hands" ; ...great story but again, arguably our "caesar" from 500 years before was greater man ) even emancipator )

i wan't to share with you only this for the end, from my collection small made collage of me - two lovable details from High Dečani church, talked so much but rarely shared some artistic details... love the lion sculptures, one in interior before main hall (love the heads) and other with angels and JC above main eneterance. like the look of second "muppet" lion don Vito franciscan and his men did nice job... again too bad Dušan's did not survive guess it had more fun and unusuals. but of course HIM never forgotten and we expect second comming and he can rest in peace knowing that he was 50 cm above other caesar ) have fun, as said many times those are just monastery churches and tombs in same time... i'm mostly out but you must join now. all my tries are to animate and make place greater than "face-twit" ;

[Ale]

for the end:

...of course if you don't follow thematics Franciscans are related to loving nature, animals and conversting lions (among others) to christianity ... since I mentioned - just want to share with you my knowledge & intersting details - franciscans are "related" to us in a interesting way... namely, the pope who authorized them as order was the same pope that gave crown to Rascia. (arguably royal "crowns" from Rome were present before among Serbs, (quasi) even some Bulgars crowned Serb as emperor some centuria before, but this is officially related to Rascia i.e. start of Nemanide dinasty and "official start" of our High middle ages that led to unseen glory...) That one, Innocent III in our (following Italian pronouncement as in some words regionaly like "ćesar" but generally "cezar" for Serbs) Inoćent III, in English Notgulity 3 ...quite possible relative of "firstborn" Vukan if we consider that his wife was (probabilty but our sources are bad and ruined) from same family as Innocent - Conti di Segni of Latium... but as always, we being clever tricked the popes and instead made Ana Dandolo the queen with other brother nice story as many, they say that Innocent was one of more "powerful" Italian popes, but weak on us... so yes, concusion: Franciscans and Rascia were related in a way as they started in same time...

that's history but for humor or lighter subject today - „Fra Vita, mali brat, protomajstor iz Kotora, grada kraljeva, sazida ovuzi crkv svetoga Pantokratora gospodinu kralju Stefanu Urošu 3-emu i njegovomu sinu svetlomu i prevelikomu i preslavnomu gospodinu kralju Stefanu. I sazida se za 8 godišt, i dospela je savsem crkv v leto 1335“ - latinized sentence don Vito left after finishing High Dečani... before humor, how bad our sources were/are also is his story... nobody know who he was until 20th century, when some sources were found, maybe he had position in franciscan monastery founded or developed by Jelena "of Anjou" queen (already talked what even some French think about her, he was great grandmother of Dušan, but he disliked))

anyway, where is humor - well first i'll translate humoristicaly (he said in short that he built church for Stefan U. III and his son Stefan, Dušan)... but comical part is that he mentiones Stefan Dečanski as "mister king Stefan III" and Dušan, then king, very young and potent with some possible goals as "mister king, eminent/light and too big (just joking but can be translated as that - but it is "grand") and too glorious king" Cute recording by good don Vito, Italian (unimportant but was working with few Italians) ...doubt that it was out of fear, or Dušan's brutality - more from respect he had then out of anticipation of his future dids ; ...but funny nonetheless, such difference in addressing kings (of course, other was near)... have fun, as i said few details are also interesting for greater European history of time, considering times, even Innocent story, but also our co-op with various catholic orders and Italians.

[Ale]

...btw - and for the end - all those historical subjects and small details are super interesting in countries "where history happened" some would say still happening... so here more than some "boring" WEuropean country or, since our events are already decades ago, now for example Ukraine historical talks and evaluations gained new impulse there... even i added on some places with what i knew and offered some details to that region few years ago but really not important now, nor crucial... (for example I said that 100% sure that creator of their anthem did listen Serb students in Kijev because they were there and allowed to sing openly in middle of XIX c, but unimportant subject totally) of course if someone from there wants to discuss something welcome but i'm really medievalist - no much political ties with that region in middle ages but if some medieval source about us is discovered there i'd be very grateful ; ...so yes, "when history happens" historical interest gain new impulse, at least in my case - since 90s i wanted to "rediscover" medieval one as much as possible and found that it is very much totally wrongly understood etc etc.

of course historians are there just to offer their version, but sometimes they might be totally wrong in conclusions and have own views and "look at world", so difference in views and controversies even about as famous persons as Napoleon... mentioning Nabulione, i've made small research about that and conclusion is that it "might or might not be true that he indeed mentioned Karageorge in private"... namely, source of "myth" or quasi myth are not Serbs at all - story was recorded by some Italian man and he was first to launch it internationally. Later even Lloyd George and New York times wrote how (quasi) Napoleon said it so "myth" created. While subject is totally unimportant as subject - really what if he said of he did not say that? ; ...but how things work on that, again unimportant example, you ask yourself question a) did Napoleon know Karageorge - the answer is yes. b) was he himslef also from small and "oppressed" regional minority (even Italian nation) - the answer is yes. c) did Napoleon showed great interest in history and knew a lot - the answer is yes etc etc. so "even without source" it is logically and historically possible that he even said that in some conversation. But even if not, big deal... to me it is like Tamerlane - again no Serb myth - saying those are "special kind of lions" etc but so what.... simply too many people make controversies where there are none

personally, medieval history was great refreshment and discovery... did it lead to "more nationalistic" stance in me - no, on the contrary liked Italians more after some findings, for example.... so i would definitely divide the world with them, we can be the rulers having their girls, they artisits, engineers, poets and so..... ....have fun, as always any help welcome and hope i made some controversies closer, great subjects... anything from Italy is gold, from France silver and Spain bronze btw for my research of our meds and fresh as rest is known and doesn't contain much - like you my sweet western Romani sisters .... btw, never mentioned that Dušan and Napoleon intended to "release" first wives and marry Habsburg princess what a great caesars ; ...i'm explaining why i could come back periodically to some subjects, forum as good as any...

[Ale]

...also want to add - while it is fresh and while on subject, quite possible tomorrow or few days ago i might be far away in 1300s - two things... as i think i said before, sometimes, no matter how odd or strange it sounds, attack or phobia or negative propaganda might be sign of respect, or sign importance - talking about tribes, nations, similar... not always of course. But sometimes yes... even things like Turks calling some battle "S'(i)rpsindigi" was sign of respect (Serb destruction) Italian fixation i talked before, Austrian fixation etc... not only hate. Also simply, unimportant are never mentioned - loosely speaking, but unimportant

also - more important maybe - since fresh... that is "huge controversy" (not really but mentioned sporadically). As we say, "100 people 100 opinions" but to cut it also, or to give short (deserves book) view or simply fact... the reason why they did not help us, wasn't "old culture or lack of it", race, orthodoxy or fifth ; (while maybe in some heads). The real reason why they did not help us was Nabulione himslef and not "Serb hate" generally, not even London or IDK... they were all concentrated on him, Greek time of uprising was much better chosen ; ...why Napoleon did not help, also strategic situation, but maybe he had ideas to od, before 1808/09... as said shortly, while yes, Greek strategic position (sea) was "better" maybe even "culture" main reason nobody could deal with Serbs was Napoleon himself and simply we ended in 1813 while he still was main fixation... if some even doubted, so also is "myth" and opinion much else... while of course some have varoius "loves" and this or that, main reason that... we were "popular" in Italy and few countries, even Britain not "anti" generally but was difficult situation... next time something medieval

[Ale]

"...i urge Serbs not to get into conflict with NATO/KFOR keepers, not because we are afraid of anyone and not because we have anything to lose blah blah etc"

imagine, we have nothing to lose in case of some conflict, really what to say to such intelligent statement, Olympus save us ;... btw, while message is alright, tone is dubious ; as always

anyway, never is nice to be on some global TVs or internet news, and usually when you are on it it means only bad things and nothing positive... unless you land mission on Uranus or similar, and honestly we are (while preparing) far from realisation... there is also that line in talks with people (and btw line I mentioned in my previous time when BBC had article) about "who is mad to have kids in Serbia" etc...

well, reality check is that it is not only about political situation and something i said is created recently from some centers (who like blood to be spilled around, my guess) but must say - and do say to all in conversation - that "not having kids" is more pan-Euro thing (and we are more pan-Euros than thought then))... while UN predicts population growth for Switzerland in decades, in the same time it predicts sharp decline for (say) Serbia and Bulgaria. But in the same time, in Swiss case it is only due to immigration to that country even if they do not have any conflicts nor "open questions". So it is same, while here maybe even more due to economy and political situation, not so much political thing only... basically we are in same situation, even if we were Swiss we would have same question of de-population

when it comes to political things, as said many times - you make big conference or summit and resolve every post-war situation, but we are not in advanced state as continent like we were in XIX century when after wars there was conference and all parties signed resolution ...but what to say, today Europe is not ruled by emperors and cylinder wearing diplomats, so conflicts are not resolved that way...

in any case, far from Uranus..... maybe all schoolkids should carry guns in school, maybe all states should have nukes as some more intellingent, even rulers, advocate or drink more bathing lotions instead of boring alcholic drinks... with some fans i guess... and then comes the shocks when something happens... meanwhile, why ordinary even non-industrial potato is twice as priced compared to 1-2 years ago in such a rich country, nobody asks ; ...but something positive - bus ticket is cheaper here ...most seriously and i said it many times before - situation around us must be resolved, if not forever because nothing is forever, not even Sun giving life to Uranus - then for long, visible time, not - to paraphrase president - because we have anything to lose, but because kids (if rised psychologically normal, that's also task and not granted) would have many to gain if some sword of conflict is not above their heads.... message to ordinary potato eater is that we are not Israel, nor in such position nor luxury to "operate normally" while problems, territorial or else, around - and no much new soldiers on the way with pop-trends ; and of course not only for kids (too violent and guns and roses, on graves, loving) but also for our majority of 70-80 years old (had to say that, they are so nice and never liked violence and blood spill))... to paraphrase president again "we must have economy to have army and hospitals, hospitals to care about injured army people" (i guess that's why) but he is not most important person in our democracy and I only like his statements but not obsessed nor listen much to any personas nor follow statements, so for fun now and then, out of pure respect for tallest ruler on earth in situation where most rulers are small men from big countries... (known that i'm sympathizer of 2m tall ruler from 700 years ago) ...as always, do join with some thoughts, but my primar goal in pub was to exchange and maybe catch some interesting historical fact, why not since Luis opened pub for that, maybe even some fresh look at historical events, personal passion older one. mainly for our pal Bombast, he showed some interest and those 3 points from Portugal jury, we have some fans but as i said to him, more interested in some historical "new thing" - DNA results of European countries was really revolutionary i'd say and whowed very unusual haplogroup for us, for example - than daily politics, personally... would be very bad politician.

also one interesting fact here for some reader (our people generally do not know that) - about separations in general... in many countries (mainly think about Spain and UK so not many)), separatist regions are often richer than country average or more successful on some fields (like Baskland or Scotland) in our case poorest region... so every state is own story and not equal... as i said, best solution was territorial setlement between Albania and Serbia in long run, but now obsolete... unlike Bosnia, majority of population on Kosovo (region with Serb name agian so it clearly was accepted by Albanians in middle ages, for fact) are not shy to say that they are Albanians and wave that flag and symbol, not something unique...

[Ale]

I'll just relocate this "question" here, to be among other i have and are interesting personally - from Bertrand to Gabrielle, popular names today and so, all i mentioned... not like i'm expecting answer nor so crucially important for me but any knowledge or addition helpful, of course and grateful for any i got like Bombast anyway, it would be - something i talked about in "sport" (but not all people care nor follow sport) about something maybe on name of Catherine Zeta Jones, the actress, name story... officially some old XIX c ship name is involved in it etc. but maybe someone sometime catched some interview or text about her anything where she expalined more detailed... i know, even i do not follow "estrada" (show-biz) do not read nor listen interviews nor much watch TV and papers today, but anyway if... of course i'm interested because Zeta was our medieval state region of crown princes etc, maritime... didn't find any detail nor i'll dig it personally so i ask if it was sometimes mentioned, ship origin, pirates and all...

let it be here, something else to add... i also mentioned - totally in different context than old history but could be rooted - in sport thread, English York... i know a lot, of course dislike blind speculations but like speculations based on knowledege, but even i learned or simply refreshed memory just recently - so interesting detail that "York" etymology (not that word per se which is after colonizations, but before Celtic-Britanic) is actually also "Ibar", great, super detail... what i knew before that it was also place of stationed Roman legion - just like (theory, we lack credible sources) our Arsa i.e. Ras, Dalmatian border etc... to add to list of interestings i talked before, so York is also included, while again i mentioned it totally different context - but turned out it was also Ibar and fort on border like Ras... Ras is, who doesn't follow, place that early northern Serb elites used as some sort of capital, position is favorable for overlooking and controlling area, Romans knew that - later state Rascia was named from it etc... two details for lovers of old history, personally very likable. But don't get too horny ...personally investigating something else, but i did not know that... i, btw, mentioned (again for sport haters)) in context of Templars which is interesting subject for me - one of theories is that our whole medieval history - starting from "civil war" by two sons of "possible Anjou line quenn, at least by male side, on which Milutin prevailed and he and his grandson Dušan, the emperor, are those who clashed the most with Angevines and pursued almost expansionist politics against them - back to idea, theory is that actions of those two were maybe very, very influenced by greater continental things (fear of Avignon and maybe France) than purely local conquest etc. to say, why is "templar thing" so interesting and historical for us not some fun or conspiracies - they were very real and present, maybe influenced our most spectacular time of Nemanjić era i.e. those two kings, pardon king and HIM emperor so for us could be important...

as said many times, like any source interested in mediaval times of ours to every detail... many questions are interesting. Newer history in my case more btw so take in that sense my above question... to repeat, any source you might ever run into or know about mediavl Serbia is golden for me... basically always was fascinated how could such tribe (small and long dormant in medieval times) produce some fascinating elite members and incredible descriptions by much stronger even if we disregard those two, Stefan was "feared", George entered Ëuropean legend" and those two were just products of state that already crashed and mere lords - hobby and fascination, but can be very serious and have decent knowledge if you can anytime add to those interests of mine..... as Hex said once - everyone with some ideas should make thread of their - i did and what now ...think i wasn't useless at least and even interest in 2-3 persons or something fresh is success or satisfaction ; so might come back... always considered those liking history games as liking history as well so i tried )

[Ale]

...really for some historical things and objectivity "one have to be more than man (or woman))..." not to quote Nabulione but something like that... what i dislike with some modern historians, and surely we need more refreshing, is that it still is visible that they are leaning more to there, if they are more liberal or there if more nationalistic and similar... really your own views should be totally irrelevant if writing historical piece, work. I try, with some refreshments on old stories - take Templars for example, think i was already clear about that, some might think it makes us "cooler" considering their almost mythical status, for me and as should be for everyone, dry historical facts, just because it was possible.... many, many other subjects, just interested in truth not "likings" ...to joke, to me (for example) Vikings are nothing special nor i have some mystic approach like there is around the world, personally think Dule the emperor was much more "badass" than any Viking for humor. what i perosnally like about him, since mentioned, is that from sources and his correspondence, behaviour, seems like he had somehow "loosely" relation with church figures - be it catholics, orthodox, probably wider etc. Criticized them many times, both in codex and else and no wonder that he ended with double "anathema" by two biggest branches (if not de jure than de facto) and only wasn't "saint" of all kings from golden era, while in life maybe less "devilsh"... etc. of course my fav subject.

anyway, something, if we consider theory or fact about previous look at events, fear of Avignon and France - word on Stefan Dečanski, his pap and Milutin's son... he doesn't fit well between two when it comes to some ideas... must be said that i do not believe he was blinded (simply to able after his return to Serbia and short other "civil" war) not i take as fact that Dušan ordered killing, but generallz who knows nor crucial.... something else that fits - maybe medieval writers also used stylistic figures, hidden code and wanted to present something else than obvious... so, detail i liked, about him constantly praying, almost every 20 kilometers while heading towards Bulgarians for decisive battle - maybe as stylistic figure shows that he was unsure as ruler so he did not fit among Serb elite and maybe some decisions that were already made to go "teeth to teeth" with Bulgars and Romea/Byzant and potentially French/Latin interests around as final goal... maybe had doubts and fears, realistically doubted our strehgth etc etc. So maybe that is how whole story is presented stylistically by med writers... he wasn't some angel, but skilled on own way - he spent few years as very young on (Mongol) Nogai/ay court first, later new Greek wife after war, maybe wasn't connected enough in Serb elite of the times. few words on how he fits.... Bulgaria, btw, also fits in theory (by theory again) as for Serbs it was enough just to potentially "kick it out" from any alliance - while Byzant was planned for conquest as (unlike Bulgaria) it was seen among Serb elite (and their mercs) that weak Byzant is much more threat for eventual French or similar penetration, hence attacj on Rascia, almost constant.... as said we have some picture, it is very interesting and fits from amny angles, but as said amny times we can only just speculate, based on events. hopefully likeable explain, story, even in France but unimportant today, but why not dealing with it with some less known details.... we and French maybe did not have some history of friendship, with also Napoleon story as cute addition - but soon in XIX century, Serbia and France built new relations... over for now, of course already talked few times - do not want to "massage" anyone - but maybe did not explained story in detail...

[Ale]

...could be said - goals of our campaign were 100% met and accomplished - French penetration via Romea-Greece never happened! ... (until 1918)) when we set goals we achieve them, like true keepers of Ras and border, until circumstances and times demand our service.... mentioning Ras, long time ago i made mistake and believed i was right - but distorsion from Arsa to Ras happened maybe already by Italians themselves - so generally they did not "use our word" as i pictured for Rascia it was change that already happened maybe before Justinian - though in Roman-Italian style it would be more "Rasa" as distorted version, anyway small correction but who knows every detail, certainly not from head - maybe from our ancestors Celts who did not want to rule from "Arsae" ...About Templar influence in us - fact that we usually call "temple" our biggest church in Belgrade, not church ; ...and so on million interesting details and why is history so likable and fun, made of deatils more than naratives... sometimes people go to far, but possible things should be considered... nobody doubts we are mystery and that's greatest part...

it is 28. june - today we and whole continent celebrate success in campaign against French ...but battle happened deep into July in reality as all Europe used julian calendar then, caesar forever.... as mediavalist usually check what is new, nothing new, nothing new even from me... So used quiet moment to log into here, for some humor & some minor correction, if correction at all because not known when distortion really happened. But yes, then Italian and in part western version was actually "common word" - anyway, i'm sure that fortress holds some ancient secrets, maybe hosted "holy grail" once etc. and is protected by UNESCO ; ....have fun, for all international readers no matter where - think about it again, Napoleon French with Genoese roots, ruins Venice and ignore Rascia and claims that he very much likes history, could it be just coincidence (btw our emperor also wanted to hurt Genoese interests very much, hoped together with Venice, basically only country near he had friendly posture with)...Umberto Eco is authority for me but must say never read his philosophical work nor anything modern, like his "medievalist nose" and that's why so many times refered to him, really credits... interesting is detail - looked, of international universities honors to him - mostly "Anglo-Sexons" (Scots noticable) some Nordic and our university, but never claimed directly why - can confirm that he took part in medieval evaluations as well here ...hope i was fun, of course taken as interesting even by you all, always welcome to add or with something interesting of yours... not only nor most important subject for us/me and like to look at it, but could be said that Dušan's rule (and whole Nemanjić era) put as in interesting continental events and mysteries, even role, and enabled great cinematic or book material, for us with every right... later lords and despots, his "creation" ;

[Ale]

French are nice, always fireworks for our mutual celebration... ; ... .....of course our battle with them was on 15th of June, calendars were already tweaked but that's common joke and dilemma continentally due to differences that existed and were they all adjusted - plus, believe me all you think you know about battle is maybe myth and mostly from Turkish sources and much later date - so consider my confusion as aditive... our and western sources of it and Maritsa are almost none, when it comes to battle details and tactical aspects, sadly, but they happened at close time... it was in december under heavy snow ; ...nice story Miloš the knight, question of honor, traitor etc etc. but maybe very far from how events unfolded, why not repeating it

anyway, want to give some "guidances" on my fav subject, based on experiences and similar... i see in English texts (Wikiones for example) - how there is dilemma or sometimes equalisation of phrase "Latin" used of times of those two kings, for them important before them maybe different... dilemma is, maybe mistake to think that "Latin" if said (by Dušan or similar) meant Italian, well mostly not... it was, opinion, events respected - mostly directed at French, Angevin influence and similar by him and Milutin... hence, "Latin heresy" was almost surely directly aimed at Avignon taking over, by opinion not so much generic term (but might be). Generally in Romea/Byzant it could include "Franks" but also "Italians" more specifically Venetians - but think in our king sense more French "heretics"... second interesting guidance can be that simply sources that are preserved are not always maybe complete truth even if "we have source"... for example i always say - you have some of Dušan's correspondence with Venice and everything is there but what if Venetian letter/response stating "alright we will send help when you are 10 km from walls..." for example, to be fun example take any event of the time, not something true... so always some distance from "complete sources"... and third, always mind the times - again for example why would we lack source - because it was either secret or strictly forbidden to have any source... example, we don't have source if they migrated - but it was in times forbidden to mention for example "I Baldovin or I, Altoman memeber of order of Solomon's temple here in Rascia..." so it was never mentioned and similar if you get idea, so zero source doesn't mean zero chance etc.... in short few guidances and something of opinion on those interesting times, but purely historically... btw, those are roughly times in which Dante mentioned Rascia in his famous work, sniffing that something is "brewing" and also btw, events of "name of the rose" by Eco are during S. Dechanski rule, if you want to locate them in our events.

but those things are "top secret" and stay quiet ...seriously, wanted to share as some guides for any reader, continentally interesting... thanks for fun days France ...i contacted some younger French historian some time ago, he confirmed Milutin was Plantagenet ...jost joking but wanted to see if any of two maybe claimed rightfully French throne, and how much money French crown owed us.... Napoleon knew, being man of law, that old debts do not get forgive even after revolutions and system change so he made his priority Rascia not to return on map ....but generally we are lovers now - no not me and historian, i mean we and French... humor aside, wanted to share some "experience" and opinion, on our forum only because already wrote a book here ; but finish... take it all as content for forum, think historically maybe most interesting for us, France and England as powers of the time.... ; ...i don't know, opinion is that people might like it, of course always with a lot of humor

[Ale]

who is the guy on pic, you might ask... French king Jean le Bon i.e. John II i.e. Žan le Bon ; ...picture just to make post more multimadeial But you can put this face on "most wanted list" as suspect as he reigned at time of Dušan's death. Seriously I said few times and explicitely said that - French crown is potential "enemy" i.e. opponent of the time but can say that for sure, personally think anger was more aimed at Avignon than maybe French rulers per se, so a bit of distancing... he wasn't direct (Jean) descendant of Philip IV (Capetian) "the iron king" who maybe caused Milutin's reaction and "shock" (and more than half of Europe)) and is from Valois cadet branch so maybe not even closely related to Philip's actions etc etc. we can't blame him, for sure but in situation France was in the middle of XIV surely French crown did not like any disrtuption of French speaking possessions in SE of continent, by us... when it comes to Avignon it is known that just few months before Dušan's death (Greek books)) Avignon was still in argument and direct exchange of words (sometimes tough) with our ruler and Pierre/Peter Thomas met our emperor in interesting eye-to-eye which wasn't friendly at all... so - in theory - Avignon could be on "suspect list" as well as someone from Romea/Byzant as most obvious - but could have been someone from inside i.e. our actor/noble etc etc. Must say now, i mentioned (we don't even know if he was poisoned, maybe some "energetic drinks" in combo with ill health, maybe water or anything) it briefly before and also believed in "Romean action" but now not so sure, might really be someone from Avignon or French, so don't point finger "at Greeks i.e. Romans" declarative ...Jean le Bon was the one who lost at Poitiers by our English allies (that's not in question of all things)... other thing, everyone will agree that French houses and politics of the time were complicated, but something else for "western experts" - don't mind me sometimes in posts mixing "Angevin" influence, rulers etc. with French crown directly, of course i know some distinctions and that's why intentionally called Milutin the Plantagenet but talking for simplification i.e. here in the times Angevines were all maybe equalized with French crown i.e. influence and fear was of all those around - Hungary, Albania, south Italy, Sicily (well they already dealt with them so no Sicily)) etc. as "French crown" actors, distinction considered and Edwardian England surely "more liked".... so don't mind if i sometimes simplify... indeed our war with Romea and English with France have some similarities and almost went same way until Dušan's death (minus we lacking big fleet but was in plans), different corners of continent but very similar, even Dushan and Kantakouzenos being "friends"at start etc. Nice story, likable... of course our war is much "cooler" than yours becuse we battled Romans, story dating to 700 BC and you only French

anyway, talking about complicated politics and events - every expert will agree that Crusader/Jeruslaem kingdom are top ; French creation mostly ...did some minor refreshing of memory trying to look how it fits in modern texts etc. No much and is still for looking... of course our history is very related to events, especially one crusade but not exclusively nor excluded that we would have similar rise even without ; ...nothing special, but not uninteresting - as I expected, Venetians and Genoese were always in conflict some battles there happened also on 15th of June, but also as expected in events Templars were mostly on Venetian side and so fits... no doubt it was all interesting for us, fall of Jerusalem kingdom and French preparation for war with England (and all we know) coincide with our rise... have fun and always join with something else if liking era or point to something of my interest that is obvious but i did not mention....

[Ale]

Our Baldovin is btw only person from whole east Europe (and rare in southern) in Wiki Baldwin category... not like wikipedia is supreme authority but is important and read so "cool" addition by us to that period of history... since name's fame of course it is interesting. Interesting is that, by theory - as said million times our sources are bad and maybe ruined through time, sometimes unintentonally due to fall of state ; - "that" Baldwin was born in coastal areas (maybe Kotor town) while his possession by Dechanski and Dusanio were given in totally contra part of kingdom, close to Byzant & Bulgaria border... interesting is also that our historians (maybe some western as well) indicate that maybe there were actually 2 Baldwins in our kingdom of the time and that is not same person - one was "lord" (knez) other that "finance minister/chancellor" (kaznac) Baldwin, as theory... even more interesting some historians found that name was also present among "third caste", in some villages in med Serbia (also not on coast exclusivelly) so maybe more "widespread" than some individuals on court etc. He served Dečanski and continued on high position after Dušan's takeover - fathers name not known, son is possible "Malyuchatte" (Malyushat) also rare name etc. but not so interesting... in any way, interesting story, glad we are only state that had it mentioned, for history lovers. Of course that doesn't make Alec automatically our man, but if you ever read some interview where he talked.... just joking, unlike Zeta ship as curiosity etc... as is whole time interesting and led to most interesting time of our history of era and maybe include direct influence or "chain-of-events" including France, why not talking such details and our possible sentiments with France, French people when they were important, but even without that, think likeable subject - so take it as addition since wiki and all name him as only mentionable person from whole continent part...

sometimes is opinion that westerners - even ordinary, simple actors or so - maybe know more details about us than we... history doesn't matter, but is fun and is most important thing in previous sentence aimed at Ralph Fiennes also as "old-French" etc. but as btw... lets add another story if you like to know - story is (Romean source i guess) that Serbs/Rascia acted on Roger (Rutger or what) II of Sicily "advice" and started first notable bigger war against Byzant/Romea and against, arguably, last really important "Romean emperor" Manuel I, who allied with Jerusalem kingdom and tried to be involved in crusader states... we don't have him in particularly nice memory (i was very young then)) but nice, interesting story from middle of XII c and our "metamorphosis" i.e. evolution... when Romeans were "pro" we were somehow "ambivalent" when they were against and "got over nose" by fourth we were "pro" and so on... not so important but fun. Possibly our kings supported Jerusalem financially, some kings even tried to set up Serb church presence there - but for us most important that fall of it was start of strong state, i tried to look more on "French" ties with us... what we know is that Dušan said "I so hate French that I don't want to be kralj (king, possible connection with Karlo/Charli) and i want to be car (cezar) now!" ...who is guy on pic - Baldovin, rare photo taken while heading to some confernce with Bulgars ... nonetheless, hope you like my stories, always join to solve some misteries....

[Ale]

generally - let it be some sort of conclusion, of course i can talk many details and subjects for fun - could be said that philosophers and similar, artists or whatever, who looked at historical events, maybe secretly searching for some answers around or trying to relate them, were right all to modern times or better said all to great wars in Europe in first half of XX c... things like calling Charlemagne "father of Europe" are maybe exaggerated by "proud French" and many similar events or persons - but is interesting to look at "chain of events" as i called it and really there is some tiny, thin sometimes, line that "fits"... of course we are talking philosophy here, not politics

so in that sense - to take back my previous words... actually wouldn't say that we don't have some "history of friendship" with France, even medieval... maybe i (in part) missread i.e. missunderstood some parts. When it comes to later theory of Napoleon (you will agree it fits cutely when it comes to Venice and revolting Serbia, he being "Genoese" in part) but on the contrary detail that rebels had some hope "in France" shows maybe that some idea of "France frinedly" survived through centuries, philosophically... now when you look at it - Charlemagne never met Serbs (good for him)) for example unlike Croats, but unlike Croats (giving them for example, take Bulgaria or something) - for Serbs it remained (due to history with Byzant/Romea and later Ottomans/Turks) something like "France is good, will help"... simplified said, but something like that ... must say medieval interest is not philosophical, like to go through labyrinth of events even without any philosophy, but sometimes some ideas or "greater picture" shows through events or when you connect them....

anyway, take it as my addition to philiosophy of history, not politics, of Europe some things show more clear to me later or similar... mainly wanted to say that maybe wasn't right about "lack of history of friendship" with France, maybe missread events... philiosphically interesting, politically so-so but it has touch (not today)... so we are talking history, philosphically, chaining events etc. Of course we and French are ready for space and very modern... interesting detail already mentioned - in final years of our state, medieval of course - that Frenchmen "created legend" about our George "nice, large man and richest of all rulers" calling already devastated country "developed" and so on - nice end of medieval era, symbolical... did not picture that with right words maybe previously, for what it matters and not much today, maybe gave "unfiar" grade of France in events (i repeat, French were most important))... however "the iron king" of France remains some obvious moment of anger and if our two kings "let him through hands"... but French were faster sending us nice Greek books and i stand firm about English, arested him, Jean, nicely.... let it be conclusion on that and whole subject in which i looked at "Serbia-France" in high & late middle ages subject - not to repeat, always ineterested in something, obviously trying to look at events of that timeline "Acre fall to say 1355 or Poitiers" and what where motivations of all acters from Philip IV, Edwards, Dušan etc etc... but generally interesting times for history lovers as said maybe more here, France and England (and Scotland)) as it defined whole century, century and a half for 3-4 of us... the end. kiss, kiss my horny rose ....

[Ale]

...also want to say, for those millions photogaraphing our castles yearly and making movies about, enough for now - totally BTW (of course we were small and great percent is not our geniality but western help...) that 90% of myths that are quasi ours are not our at all Often from foreign sources but not ours... also as note to our people. So - "wealth", Dušan's "might" (good we found him, but some cnclusions are also thanks to western scientists etc), black and very heavy full plate armor (maybe also on horses) is also from Greek, Turkish and even Mongol sources... talked that even Ottoman-Turkish history textbooks (for military) in XIX c mentioned "Serb armor unlike they ever seen"... etc etc not to repeat but underline is that very few is "öur myth", doesn't matter but people not to think we were liars In any way, very cool, for a small tribe... mentioning movies, to younger generations, medieval movie doesn't have to be about battles and slaughter at all, in our case - like that example with medieval mysteries we found ourselves in, Templars all sort of crusaders, "sons of Christ" and round earth Dule mentioned (just joking)) - can be totally cool dramma with good characters and interesting events - but must take western actors and make it in English interesting scenography and costumes as imperative ) But that is for some future generations - which future generations??

also - as last - maybe you did not know that 300, 400 years later some German states (i forgot so pardon, maybe some Prussian) kings used something like what was (by story) Dušan's practice - he allegedly recrutied only people over 2 m in his personal guard (due to his size)... in a way (while maybe some else aslo did it) it is practice that later created all sorts of ideas and even why are "guard" caps (like English most famous till today) so tall etc etc. Interesting story, if i never said before - we don't know much but wanted to mention in idea that surely Victorians had taken a lot of inspirations from old times, including ours ; ...anyway, many cool details and myths but rarely ours - except maybe Churchill being Milan's son but "knowing English" not excluded that some of Winstons enemies launched it in England not important, have fun

(admit it, rised so many interesting subjects best i could but it did not generate any traffic....)) nonetheless, all is good to know & have, always interested for your story... (like French med history very much, again) p

[Ale]

...also, good is chance to explain to western history lovers some distinctions and how things worked... i think i explained emough why is subject so interesting, even to people like Eco was etc, and why maybe something bigger is hidden inthere and worth attention... historical research should be relaxed and surely continent was even there "much smaller place" and in Rascia i.e. Serbia without any rigid borders and "hate" some imagine and is place of very unusual alliances (as was Romea in times i.e. Byzant but Byzant is something of name of much later date so i prefer this one)... for all i invested in looking at it, definitely Dušan was much more "relaxed" and that in his moves there is even some humor - for example he claimed tie i.e. right based on (again) tie with Constantine "the great" which possibly did not exist (although previous Serb rulers had Greek wives) much more interesting is that (sadly we lack paper and can only speculate about paternal line of his great-grandmother "from Angers", Plantagenet)) but if we accept one possibly theory of paternal line from French noble - best part is that is that he maybe did not have line with Constantine (which is thing all great rulers of bigger countries like Charlie claimed, btw) but could have tie with French rulers (and they were all Charlie's descendants, as he was "father of all")) and Charlemagne ...as said very interesting details and generally long time ago i included him amoong "misunderstood" rulers of our medieval times... interesting times like possible chance that Vukan was related to the papal family of his times, by wife, di Segni... just relax historical research and make it "cooler"......... but, something else wanted to say to western history lovers (i'm also western, have two guns on each side of body)) but western European i mean. What "self titled" means in Dušan's case - of course it doesn't matter nor it means much if some old man from somwhere crowned you and then you are legitimate but strict rules considered - all East-orthodox are "autocephalos" (automomous) and once leader of church reaches status of patriarch - he becomes the one able to crown emperor... so in that sense, Dušan's title was legitimate... not to mention that Bulgarian patriarch elevated our church to status. Hence, legitimate decision, but unimportant - even Romeans acnowledged him title (as Serb emperor) so don't se any special controversy there... legal issuses as i said to western pals, French ones ) ... something else is "controversial" did we, now talking whole Europe, had that right to claim "Roman" throne - but does it matter and makes as cooler and one of 5-6 (3-4)) tribes that ever claimed Roman title in history ...that's why Dule was so guarded, from east west and inside... but really does it matter, still some controversies but for me relaxed and cool... but our was only of that spectacular heights ...when it comes to whole history of Rascia i.e. Serbia also relax, lack of sources gave great privilege plus cinematic material and we can be proud that never had constant policy of animosity towards anyone in east or west Europe - so again such rigid line was not present and I often joke for example when text says "heavy armoured knights (full plate for example) mostly started in context of Hundred years war and western Europe" and i say "yes, yes mostly in Serbia"

obviously i'm in HIM SU IV Dušan camp, btw but don't care about sainthoods nor it is for reasons some might think ; but doesn't matter... something else as always - like this English section article of always controversial and fun Wikipedia... list of Imperial Guards (only notable)) in European history and among very few - our ) have fun, hope you like it, as said very interesting subject for our history... it was the French as important, while maybe we influenced (in a indirect way) Prussians and English... like the article ...btw, some details are unknown and fairly just on surface - maybe it wasn't "so Alemanic" and guardist were from whole Europe - possibly even some Swedes (as standard bearer) Scots or Weaklings etc etc but unimportant... really hope appreciated and fun

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_guard

[Ale]

..."j" wanted to write something like "jedi beware" as previous header but clicked prematurely this tune - one of few sources that survived - was in my head while thinking about imperial guard of such size and looks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bzWSJG93P8

anyway, some contours are there and whole thing not so fantastic... definitely Milutin used (as English claiming French throne later) the "French lily" as seen on his coin below (two versions) extensively... Dušan not so much and in his times it shifted to other goal and "Charlemagnism" ; ...today it is present (lily) on our coat of arms - but "national symbols" maybe more aquila (somehow mutated though)) and something similar to Byzantine (and Jerusalem kingdom) fileds etc. But Milutin was more "explicit" - interesting that theory is that it is not about flower at all or not directly - but also that it could represent "Frankish spear" and like (Milutin holds it btw)... In any way Milutin and Dušan were "scary" and daring above normal level ;... while Milutin got "negative fame" for some other event - maybe not true in detail and surely not his wish - not hard to conclude that maybe was central figure, who maybe promissed last Italian popes, including one killed by Philip IV, some support. He also allegedly had some works on codification that did not survive, btw... and, it seems was fully aware of his "French blood"...

this is the end, the pause, whatever... but you always join me with something, give some fresh views etc. what excites you ; ...we got old mystery "par excellence" i would say and don't see how any "Turkish bath" (in blood)) is more interesting for films than this events... to return once more to Dante - mentioned Rascia (aiming Milutin) few times, money explicitely and Philip many times...

as said making pause with all that is interesing presented to you... other thing that interests me now - if even in theory our last 3 rulers of Nemanide-Dandolo-Plantagenet-Caroling dynasty were planned killed by some "clique" of our own nobles, it is horrible thought ( ...give me Gabriele to question him about death of last ruler ...but that for some other times and "looks like us" but surely looks like but isn't - however last 2 important rulers, despots, were related to Vukan's line of Nemanides ; have fun, this is now theorising - but part about heraldry and what i talked before more interesting and visible for our story, kiss, kiss ....

[Ale]

Urbi at Orbi!

We are fighting Greeks i.e. Romeans for this important site and i call all people from other countries to join us in battle (mainly French knights, but anyone welcome)...

seriously wanted to also add this to medievalists and history lovers long time ago - now cool touristic site and place of interest, recommended for anyone able to visit... it was (after renovation and our taking) monastery now known as "The Archangles", shortened. built (rebuilt, there wasn't much in today Jerusalem then btw) during Milutin's arguments with Philip IV, once Serb monastery with hospital, library and able to host 200 people, our Templars guarding it and all...

there is desire and dialogue about maybe returning it to us with Greeks, and maybe it will be done, if we recognize Cyprus etc Most seriously, don't follow church things, but gratitude to Greek partriarchy for preserving it and preventing it becoming ruin or something else, and local authorities through ages. For me monumental value and testimony of our "Baldowinism" and of course super interesting, of course would be cool to be autocephalos and our only ) While once known library and relics (possible holy grail in our possesion etc) were taken all over the world (some scripts in Moskva, Kijev and Vatican and Avignon) but that is our story for even more photogenic things - just imagine only fragment of Branko's belt in London.... so ever able to visit, buy something etc. it is - idk - 150 meters from church of Holy Sepulture (sepulchre but is same thing) where Baldovin had argument with Fulk before going to Holy Sepulchre for meeting ) and maybe as much from Golgota, in st Francis street. (because we co-oped with franciscans, loving France)

think it is cool - probably the coolest of our reach during medieval peak, recommend... in political sense we are for reinstalling kingdom of Jerusalem as best long term solution, administarted but not ruled by joint French-Serb caretakers and peace kept by Imperial guard ; ...low res of exterior, gate.

[Ale]

...it is also possible i.e. 99% sure that our state and ruler "edicts" (Dušan above all) kept church of Holy Sepulchre "alive" in some periods, when we mantioned it... in short it was mostly ruin before Milutin sent expedition while it is not really known how church looked in period up until mid XVI c, mostly Eastern nations took care, nestorian etc.... we are not taking any credits, but something like our rulers were really important and getting monastery so close as testimony... in any way, what we know is that some Serb monks surely were closely involved with events in 2-3 cnturies to that church of importance... and surely took part in renovation efforts of mid XVI c, by "muscle" due to proximity of our monastery even in times of so-op with Franciscans - of whome one of most important figures was from Ragusa/Dubrovnik (Franciscan) involved of renovation of mid XVI c.... our monastery died out (as Serbian) in some mid XVII c, btw so could be said that, rulers, monks and people from here (when rulers were no more) were closely involved in Holy Sepulchre question. Part of the deal Dušan had with Ragusa/Dubrovnik in some territory exchange was that it vicinity take part in financing both our monastery and possibly Holy Sepulture church itself - and of course his goal was to reach Jerusalem with army etc...

we are now talking some spiritual things but think interesting for "world history" surely and just shortly said, maybe little known details... interesting for every tourist and place of such fame... we were cool once but no toruble the end, if someone into some detail, always free to ask, love the subjects

[Ale]

...it really is intersting and why Europe is so cool and endless spring of themes and ideas... not to sound biased but "mediterranean region" maybe the most i.e. ex-Roman empire and, while maybe unaware, our tribal leaders made fun/interesting choice to place us in it... while other regions have maybe own stories and fun, but this is top.

spent the evening listening to Catalan speakers like in this example... it was like punishemnt for my words but not much so don't worry

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WIKI ... talan.webm

of course whole article is interesting, but wanted to catch melody... so some conslusions from SE to SW... indeed, while it states biggest lexical similarity with Italian (but Portugese and Spanish not far) for me (grammar and lexica aside and not directly 100% to any of mentioned) and when it comes to melidoldical aspect i.e. sounding of it - more similar to Portugese than Italian and indeed very different from French (which is not listed anyway) maybe even Romanian (if your ears are damaged)) than Italian ... intersting considering geographical divide and kilometers but true. Castilian i.e. dominant Spanish "signifacantly" melodically different as well - btw, also interesting, while texts say that Catalan has possibly more Latin-Greek borrowings, for example Castilian sounds more, again talking melidical aspect, similar to Greek per se than Catalan - mentioning just because i'm from SE not becuse it has any lexical similarities with Greek. And as last in this comparing - French, as somone who learned Latin (classical) on paper looks more like Latin than even Italian, strangely might seem - but of course melodically not and it sounds Strange so much, in that "melody and papirology" part for now - not expertise but could be interesting...

as said glad we found ourselves in all those things, even took part... gives - while medieval states were not national - some new dimension to Milutin's (or to call him Miluten as his mama called him)) and Dušan's "Latin heresy" iconic line as well ; ... also gives new dimension to Philip IV of France as well, our (possible) more likening of Aragon and Italians etc etc and million really interesting and speculative details... as last, it was "bomb" that I2 haplogroup (by some sources) is most present in Sardinia and NE Spain and here - while not so much in modern Serbs who being imperial mixed more... but percents are not so great there, but present... cultural aspect maybe more interesting, but even this added some "flavor".

...but i already added enough to history and philosophy of Europe greatest part being demasking Napoleon ;... (it is about money)) so will not dare now for some deeper conclusions and elaborations, take it as interesting and casualistic, while important... our continent is still far from "case closed" and i'd say, history gives it new energy and reason to kiss.... if taken properly and unbiasedly... Dante was maybe (as some theoretists in Italy and here propose) maybe "fan" of Miluten and mentioned him more comically than negativelly, and archeological finds in Italy show that Italians (of that region, but maybe Florentine as well) were happy and glad to be "kinghted by him"... just one example, not so important... to write really "true" history of Europe very deep knowledge, including culturalism and lingusitics is needed ineeded.... hope you learnt something as well, this now the end, but do join me, while we are here

[Ale]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Cata ... referendum

feel need, almost obliged to comment also... since article among, idk, 200 states of UN cited only 12, our included, but of course there is no room for all in text and only most important are cited

actually, talking for myself but also anyone interested and contrary to opinion, it is situation more similar to Monetenegro than Kosovo (we are full of examples, lucky us)) not to mention previous examples of Yugosarmatia, but nobody cares now... Montenegro, one we and everyone recognized, east, west, south, north, Uranus. While not even similar to that, more to that than Kosovo... which is also wrongly presented as "self-determination" of already self-determined etc etc. but also we don't care anymore and not so dumb that it was created as "middle solution" not to give it to Albania, nor Serbia although it was legal part of second etc and now part of first ;;. Anyway, Catalans - and all Iberian people - are our old pals, attested in middle ages as far back (for example Gacoins i.e. Basks were fast to act on our arrest warrant over Jean le Bon together with English)) not to mention our Spanish force dying loyaly for us to be super rich in empire and despotate)) - so seriously i'll just shortly mention not to be misunderstood in Catalonia or Spain or sister Baskonia... as it is not that and is wrongly interpretated even by your politicians... Catalans claim nationality as well as Basks. Sapienti sat, as we say since Servius...

not giving any political statement, just legal and historical, since we are mentioned... of course not much interest for us in one way or another - we only have interest in Scotland, due to them promising oil platforms to us And in that sense again, historical interestings and humoristically, we could have been only country in Europe with "New Barcelona" if plans by some Habsburgs were to be realized few centuries ago, true detail (buit it would separateas it is north))... btw, not my problem nor idea to discuss - Lithuanian politicaians stated are also wrong in definition and shows that they missed lesson on "self-determination" which is not about who is ruling state, but doesn't matter... more as fast and fun post to our sisters Baskonia & Catalonia, che bellas, che bellas... also to our sadly desorientated people - nobody is "keepeing anything to us" (in terrirorial way) and not blocking it anywhere unlike sisters mentioned etc. so don't see paralel... and third to Spanish people we are not into any political events there, we only supported ETA ... do join, say something, this i simply felt obliged to say - we are one of few relaxed states of this world and can speak everything openmindedly and freely, if you get my idea

[Ale]

today humor, but this is the end...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWFsV8KmKWA

mediterranean in short like them or not - and i hate them - French are skilled in satire but also very good material to satirize them from us others, oh yes French had that skill to, with very few words or just one line, satirically represent whole idea or trait - legendary line from Asterix "What he saays?" comes to mind etc... Brits are also solid in humor, even we had some "old-school" dating from XIX c (mentioned our satirist from era who is top i'd say continentally), probably many others but not known... btw, earlier decades were "golden age" not so present anymore here, nor France, nor Britain so much... we are not funny anymore, nor satirical

also to explain something else... we have a monument here, in some park, dedicated to France, probably only of that type when it comes to nations... anyway, line on it says (paraphrase) "let's love France..." and some of my lines are reference to that, not so much other things, so comically we and French are lovers... it aslo features nice naked leg and part of bu** of French figure above, so we love her... ...but not only that, we generally had a lot of fun with French girls through history - even story is that our king (who was half-Italian by mother, btw) turned whole valley into lily-carpet for his French wife, Planatagenet one etc.... so now you got some guide on humoristical parts for better understanding ;

that much for now, i'm finished, welcome, say something and don't mind murky face ontop

[Ale]

btw, there was also referendum in Catalonia - later declared illegal by Madrid and EU - in which Serbs were voted as most desirable partners... sadly France is not yet as democratic

anyway - think this is funny - but for the end also to add.... changes in history happen as we go, so story of that monument is symbolical... it was place of supporting buildings of Stefan's L. castle (probably something before), much later grand monument to Karageorge, ruined by Austrians (just without Austrians)), was planned for Franz Jozef statue (never placed luckily) and in the end become place of most beutiful and sexiest of all - naked France love that..... btw, if you wonder - of course our modern father Kargeorge got statue, also grand on other place do not worry

so, to people young or old it really doesn't matter if times change and if we de facto lost everything in all wars of XX c, making maybe one of 1878 last important in some sense ; history shouldn't change and I absolutely love my "naked France" and is the best... we had more drastic runinings in history than this... also, again underlining, i also insisted on some ties with France intentionally - they are wery old and importnat and literally gave birth to Milutin and indirectlly Dušan, for example... so late it be some conclusion also, for the end ....of course my whole idea is some history lovers to join me with some interestings but it seems we are most intresting... in any way love my France, naked girl very much and proud of it ) the end.

[Ale]

...and our last de jure reigning king (although with Yugosarmat throne then) died in France (de jure i.e. Occitania)) but was on his way to Paris (true France) for some orgy... nice story without sarcasm and i love it - central medieval king (except emperor) half-French (not sure from where mama arrived southern Italy, Hungary, Byzant, Latin states, Angers etc, to say again) Miluten and last king died in France... so without any political conotation, now when we are flying into space, but surely our most close or friendly west-European country, fact of history... some theorist would say it is England, London etc. - mentioned line some Croatian theorist and relatively "skilled" (now dead) insisted few years ago "London is Serbia's greatest ally blah, blah" in some semi-conspirational way maybe, but not really although not (historically not today) not totally untrue as i admited and how much decorations Victoria recieved etc. (not to mention Templars) But it is undoubtly France, in some symbolic way not political, never forget Miluten... politically and as nations we reached end of line but will remain secret lovers...

i'm not so much into modern history not find subjects super interesting, but some mention from me... dislike how some Wiki texts almost minimilise role or influence of France here, almost until 1914, but for truthness just shortly to mention that French influence - after they realized mistakes of Napoleon and that they can pay medieval debt after all - so, in reality French influence start rising much before, already in 30s of XIX century, even Milan was educated there etc etc, before him... they trained army "secretly", and of course king Pierre/Petar was French agent seriosly, just to note that texts often minimalize French presence and importance much before XX c, but unimportant

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radoje_Domanovi%C4%87

this is for the end, do join... satirist i mentioned, interesting story... even if there is no proof i.e. document, it claims that coup d'etat maybe saved his life and Pierre was tolerant of his work and criticism unlike Aleksandar O. Saved by the "black hand" ; ...but not for long as he died naturally 5 years later... in any way, i'd say work is funny, interesting pan-continentally, not so much critique of contemporary Serbia, but as events showed good joke about "Leader", police, army were relatable to much bigger countries ...as last comment, while he maybe was some "leftist" i.e. anti-monarchist later history showed also that he would be equally disappointed with "rule of the people" but as said i find some lines very funny if you can have it translated properly and in sense... as said today not so actual in here and most part of "tip-top" Europe but maybe can have something in East E, Baskonia, Catalonia, Scotland etc.... do join ;

[Ale]

...reason - btw, think it is important - for some views like mentioned (dead, natural causes) Croat proffesor (not him but people with much less knowledge or who look at history primitively) and similar mistakes is, while maybe understood for everyone, in some sense or fact that French are seen, all historical ups and downs not known by many, as quasi-catholics (what they were indeed but in own way) and even connect France with some rigid catholic faction tied to Avignon etc.... so in that line of thinking for many people without deep knowledge it is unclear or strange to think how could "Catholic country" have such history with Serbia - then (quasi) logical is that to be England, UK if you understand... simple and "logical" line of thinking but wrong... as humor to say French (while regional distinctions considered and not true for all) were more anti-Catholic than any Serbs or English at times and ruined own monuments worse than any conquerors ours ; for example.... again, not against dead professor - who was right, why hidding it now - England left EU because Serbia wasn't inthere end of story, they blew our cover...

just for similar reasons, wrote a lot about France, almost defended them i.e. tried to show another side of medal of our medieval relations... but also defended little lover in other sense, not to make them some eternal devil or someone who always surrenders or similar... ; think it deserves one small "legion d'honneur" from Emmmanuel, just call when time Some people, since I mentioned Emmanuel ) - say that in big countries one should also look at place of birth of some politician, just because of mentioned fun and regional interestings. So, Macron is from "France" northerner by birth (never checked origin btw but born north) even due to name which sounds maybe more southern etc... for what it matters and of course doesn't matter always - for example Borel is from Catalonia etc. etc. but intentionally mentioned Macron as people often like to joke about such things and he is fun...

so to conclude - it is really hard to get it right... France is good subject and one should feel proud to have such lover - from Charlie (late Nemanide realtive maybe) to modern times... who konws really maybe Napoleon wanted to help but changed his mind around left turn from Austerliz ) ...personally though something else in last few weeks - for example who says that Templars weren't really ploting something, doubt but for example... looked at Philip IV very detailed for some answers and enigmas... makes you feel sorry for Jean la Bon as well - none of our kings never finished that way, it is great shame to be arrested such way... and we started it have fun, the end.... and always join, no shame

[Ale]

part of text about Philip IV, "the iron king" ... absolutely adorable and i envy such detials very much...

...Under Philip IV, the annual ordinary revenues of the French royal government totaled approximately 860,000 livres tournois, equivalent to 46 tonnes of silver. Overall revenues were about twice the ordinary revenues. Some 30% of the revenues were collected from the royal demesne. The royal financial administration employed perhaps 3,000 people, of which about 1,000 were officials in the proper sense. After assuming the throne, Philip inherited a sizable debt from his father's war against Aragon. By November 1286 it reached 8 tonnes of silver to his primary financiers, the Templars, equivalent to 17% of government revenue. This debt was quickly paid off, and, in 1287 and 1288, Philip's kingdom ran a budget surplus...

...why? because we do not have (mostly) such details like French do, for example for Miluten... it would be super interesting to compare, even if not compare (because we are talking France, maybe most "budgetous" country of the era versus us) just to know such details for us for Milutin's and Dušan would be very intersting... but sadly as said, we don't have even his possible codex which probably existed (Miluten's)... it is important (but alas) as in such Code/xs rulers usually had some "prologue" in which they in own words explained themselves, their origin and their short world view and similar. So in that sense i said that he used "Latin heresy" line just by pure guess and that Dušan mazbe copied his style... and many other things. Would be precious for history lovers as i consider times (in a way) something that created both modern France and Serbia, for example, maybe modern England etc. I said in a way ...as last, not only (and signor Eco also doubted it) I and others have some doubts that some sources or material evidence were maybe intentionally ruined just for events relating Miluten, queen 'Elen (his mama) and some figures around them... as said for history lovers of us, from anywhere, Dušan's time shouldn't be equalized with Miluten's as both we and France changed a lot in those few decades (France changed 5-6 kings, while we only 2 but a lot changed)... etc etc. for millionth time, super interesting for that trio - England, Frnace, Serbia (and some others possibly, Scotland etc)... btw, year of Milutin's expedition to Jerusalem and founding of Serb watch over Holy Sepulture, is in total line with and date with council of Vienne (in France not that similar)) on which Philip "pushed for some his ideas" and convictions (including Templars) etc. After that Philip himself planned to go to Jerusalem but was turned against by his advisors etc. He was advised against with words: "Don't go there, Serbs are there" Sometimes talking from head so pardon... he died relatively young (about Dušan's age, maybe few years difference) soon after events... (Philip, Miluten lived 7 more years) ... so generally intersting and hopefully liked by true history lovers so i share to get some approax idea of events and rule of 2-3 monarchs (you can add England)... that is that "trio fantasticus" you the rest unimportant

anyway, while claim of French throne was totally legal and legitimate for fun (as i already shared Milutens) here is Philip's "dinar" (one silber this golden, practice Dušan accepted) from right about same time as Miluten's... even pose is same, regal insignia ) and all... when it comes to skillfulness of masters and who had better mint/forge works - judge for yourself ...but yes, Miluten eyes are a bit bigger Philip has smaller hands but generally... (and i think Miluten wears royal helmet - helmet with crown - while Philip is with his nice hair and crown etc)

as said I enjoy such themes and as forum has no themes ) this one is very good and i already have some "prepared ideas" so i share fast... always join - of course whole point is to show that we have every right to annex France ...but will allow Occitania to separate ; ....seriously if this is not interesting then i don't know what is... welcome, again gratitude to signor Eco as well... again impression is that people like this stories and era

[Ale]

...for the end lets add few more lines from investigations, speculations, possibilites etc...

one must consider and accept - winters were sometimes harsh and cold in Vatican, Avignon and Serbia so one needed fuel for fire but most seriously i want to underline again, to exclamate! even - we don't know whole truth, nobody... we, signor Eco, pope (few slaps maybe?)) French, anyone... in that sense i exclamate that it is just some theorising and that it is absolutely unclear "on which side we were i.e. our kings" and obviously elite was divided as "great chaos" (as Greek-Romeans sarcastically and almost with joy wrote after Dusanio's death) shows that... (btw, even Romeans were divided, some on our side and French, some ultras etc)... So, absolutely take as unsure that both Miluten and Dušan "hated French" in effect and facts as mentioned - Miluten acted on Vienne and mainline French decisions cast some doubt on whose side we were really in those crucial times... so warning - although most obvious, accepted and possible that "we clashed with Avignon" but not 100%... and so on. Esp. Miluten is dubious, with his accent Think it is fair, "legion d'honneurable" to say... maybe idea was we and French to align policies and annex in one big love...

anyway, while clearly noting that something else, "unlpolitically" for the times (again maybe we liked, or simply respected "France")... idea is, it is that detail that everyone in some clash, disagreement with Philip had some acusation of "sexual deviation" of sort Everyone almost... just to note.

...France changed 5-6 kings, while we only 2 but a lot changed...

they were more democratic even then ; ...let it be that, always point me to something i obviously missed and similar... like you all, your weaker side )) definitely history under mignificying glass made me more like/respect some others and it is lovely when you realise that there was "greater picture" even in times when many believe it was "localized", even divided continent... if some important comes to mind or to clear else, i'll do it, always free to correct me or help simply...

[Ale]

...seeing some news about America and UNESCO (didn't know that, didn't follow) and without any relation to it and purely BTW, wanted to inform myself looked at some facts i find fun, so kind of "did you know" idea... what is practical and political importance don't know not important, but symbolic one is great and fun, if wasn't so fun wouldn't post...

we have 5 + 4 sites (4 on Kosovo) and all except one related to (if data is correct at this date) our medieval state, that's known... most people also know which sites are that, never interested myself much although i mentioned it recently... in that sense what is fun? While list started to form in the late 70s - for example Aachen cathedral was among first European sites added (due to Charlie i guess) but fun moment is that (old) Ras fort and complex (including Sepultura of our king i'll mention) was added to the list before Colosseum, Rome in general (and all Italian sites) before Acropolis/Parthenon etc etc we sooo rule ...king Stefano Urosio I Nemanide-Dandolo (Miluten's papa) would be proud to know that fact (whose "Sepultura" i.e. monastery church entered list together with Ras) ....as said, not important but fun (Studenica also entered it relatively fast) and obviously we were very prepared to enter it...

country leading the list are Italy (hahaa) China and Germany... for fun, not importance, decided to share list of very many sites Germany "pushed", very strange list maybe unexpected and a bit hyper-productive definitely our should/could be enlarged with more medieval material, since we so important and without any complex... I'd even candidate "naked France" but is somehow small for that ) (kiss, kiss) ...always remember that our churches on list were just rural, monastery type churches and shouldn't be compared with urban cathedrals in western cities... and - i always say that - they kept (more or less) original look while many others were significantly changed, ornamented, enlarged, beautified through centuries ; so they are alright and "rich and glamorous" for their purpose ; ...anyway, those are historical lessons ) but admit that Ras vs rest is fun fact if we are to joke about importance... nice from the world ) ...we were very powerful, just that...

for more beautiful and multimedial post or comparison or addition to words - this is how Aachen cathedral and Charlie's complex looked initially... i used old "nokia black-white" phone back then ...still think that Philip IV and Miluten and Edward are - arguably - equally deserving for some building and platz in Bruxelles ; would be fun but all in due time, but of course Charlie was all their relative.... as always, hopefully fun and informative - join me with some more dubious themes i had...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_W ... in_Germany

[Parabellum]

...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_W ... in_Germany

, My hometown is in the area of map number 45 and is explained in the list as number 13. It is an old mining area bordering with the Czech Republic.

[Ale]

thanks for info - and participation in the thread, i expected some more historical evaluations by you when i seen your reply ; - of course we all know, from Solomon islands to Greenland your famous mining area... it is place where Charlie chopped some heads ...just joking and btw, sorry to hear that Dresden was stripped off the list recently, don't know why but you have more than enough, although some obvious are missing... ;

nothing from my area is on the list but should be nominanted as everything is nominated these days, for example remains of castle where Stefan L. first of Sigismunds "Draculs" and black knight par excellence ruled, how you missed it - but they nominated his "sepultura" (waiting in lobbist culoars) etc etc... if we are to talk something historically, realted to personalities - sadly maybe most intersting church and sepultura od Dusanio is ruined (maybe reconstruction;;) beside him, something about Constantine the Romean, he was born here so definitely him, but what ;... if we talk Germany - this is my fav of all on list - picture 1 Che bella, che bella! (but it is not so fun adressing Germans)) envy your beauty...

last humor for today, picture 2. Only Italian entry in year when Ras and complex gained award ) that is also why i laughed so cutely in previous post and now ) ...can imagine talks in Italy in late 70s "everyone is making lists, nominates something - and what shall we do, we have nothing important nor beutiful in this country!!" and then some minister says "how about this?" (shows picture, cave art) ....later that year it is accepted by Unesco with words "highest peak of Italian art, architecture and culture..." ... good one of course it is che bella....

always join with something and say openly what should be stripped/added.... or how tall/big should be Miluten's tower in Briseland so... btw, although France is lover, unintentionally wrote Bruxelles in post, forgot what is English version (hehe, it is so controversial these days)) but will be Brisel always, of course i respect teritory of Neverlands and all ; Europe is fun, hope you all know how to laugh and always free for something serious or comical... btw, also thanks Para for interest - i know you are reading my posts detailedly for long, appreciated among so many satire and humor, hope you catched interesting historical facts and theories, always seriously presented, since we are on it and I mentioned Dusanios "Charlemagneism" think that "Alemanic guard" was chosen intentionally in that sense - Alemania is from Achen, like Charlie... but finished serios things for now...

[Parabellum]

...just joking and btw, sorry to hear that Dresden was stripped off the list recently, don't know why but you have more than enough, although some obvious are missing... ;
...

Dresden has been deprived of UNESCO World Heritage status because of the construction of a bridge. This is a long story. I recommend to use the German Wikipedia page and have it translated into your language. The English Wikipedia page has only a limited amount of information and I can only recommend it in a limited way.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulturlan ... ner_Elbtal

Supplement to the Ore Mountains/Krušnohoří Coal and Steel Region: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montanreg ... 5%99%C3%AD

[Ale]

yes, absolutely I agree as said myself Wikipedia, in that sense English pages as most important globally being "Frank lingva", is not enough and I said people should use external links and other sources... also, good advice by Para - when it comes to particular subjects, in this example concerning Germany is (logivally) GErman source i.e. page... strangely enough i "catched" some info I mentioned (although unimportant for me as "non-deep" in modern history myself) just on German page - it was about some our spy who worked with Richard Sorge in Japan... German page had details about his involvement, radio in apartment etc. etc. So it is true ...however, "national pages/sources" have other weaker sides and limitations as they also ïntentionally/unintentionally hide/limitate other aspects of subject sometimes, if you get idea... but true. Of course going through every national page for subject is nearly impossible, of course ; ....so using own words and brains is sometimes best solution, i encourage people to do that on many subjects

anyway, that globally... to subject to add, some picture gets clearer only if one dives into some details, history as well as today, compare or align dates (as i did insome cases)... while don't find Unesco theme so interesting nor crucial for history (some call it mere contest and lobbying) and without it certainly that Rome, Athens and big part of Europe would get more traffic than Ras (but great symbolic win and respect to world)) which was scored in times when Unesco was "complete" (so Anglo-Sexons pushed us)) - so, despite ünimportance" in that sense few conclusions or interestings - since Para started me on it and forced me to add First - practice shows that cultural i.e. historical heritage can be national even if international i.e. "extra-borders" (outside borders) so one can make them "Serbian castles in Hungary" for example ; ...that's one thing, Venice did it etc... (of course it still has practical impications about conservation and personally think Unesco should do that i.e. intenational community). we are lucky in that sense that non of our sites is claimed by anyone other as "their"....

Second, i see that number of shared "world heritage sites" had risen and that sometimes we are out of it - for example one site includes 18 countries (natural one about forests, nonsense) and all around us, except us ; ...and so on but that one is particulary unimportant because we maybe do not have any forests being superpower of the time and had only mines and heavy knights ) but again is symbolical and shows some cooperation, for example ...talking symbolical things... in that sense noticed else - UNESCO deals not only with sites but also has lists of "intangible (menaing quasi, not present) cultural heritage" which has nothing with sites, monuments or nature... noticed few fun things there. While our "protections" are a bit funny (like rakija/brandy drinking)) and similar, somehow again lacks true picture and cooperation... see that many countries (quasi) share, some (quasi) traditions while we have only few ours... where i'm aiming? For example - we can share with English "tradition to claim French throne", with Germans, French etc. "tradition to claim Roman throne" and so on ...seriously there are things like "horse breeding" others claim while it was us famous for heavy cavalry (and light, can share that with Hungary and Italy where it started) and chivalic traditions, further there is "falconry" claimed as tradition by many countries from Europe north to (for example) to S Arabia but we are not in it - while it was our elite tradition and hunting practices that were famous. Not to mention that film about our noble (with Franco Nero as main role) entered Vencice festival as "Falcon", Stefan L. died with falcons around etc.... with Italy we can share "Dandolism" (we win)) and also who gave more interesting names historically to Montenegro and so on, if you get my idea, could have been done more and none is untrue...

so generally interesting subject and glad there was that piece of news about America returning, so i checked some "dark room" things about it... importance close to 0% in that sense and we achieved some great prestige in simple facts, but can do more, which is point... many funny, very dubious sites listed as well so nice read and some backgrounds i did not know... talking about phisical sites, monuments it is sometimes how you present it, make it "cooler" and closer to "truth"... Miluten is good example, more we mention "French blood" more he is interesting for French for example and so on.... in that sense, Stefan L. is (i forgot) also first ruler who effectivelly defeated Timur i.e. Tamerlane, so deserving as "world figure" ...nice subject UNESCO, thanks Para for makeing it longer, not the list though in this last part wanted merely to look at it humoristically but also to give some ideas and how things develop, but fact that Ras>Rome and Studenica>Venice is super and great for jokes and poking Italians...

[Ale]

...i really like example i probably mentioned before (Bulgarian sourceand similar)... after Bulgar emperor (or what was title in their tradition, our was "cesar" in original btw) Boris "the great" was crushed (haha, like the word)) by Serbs in some battle and important leaders (and possibly sons) were captured - after prisoner exchange and peace agreement source says gifts were exchanged "furs, 2 falcons, dogs and few slaves"... we are talking IX century, Serbs still mostly into wolves as religion )

about horses not to waste words - even in XVIII c it was as story that in short-lived colony in today Ukraine, "locals esp. praised and sometimes stole Serb powerful horses" but it dates to Rome in our case, Servius probably...

just to say how strong traditions were, of course and why is "tragedy" i.e. current situation we to not be included in story about cavalry and falconry... must say don't follow situation about clubs etc. but surely was place for us.... later, later and as first on list ) have fun, always join, see how much more interesting it is as a dialogue... i'm finished but a lot of subjects offered ;

[Ale]

...it really is intersting - depends where you sit but is global subject ; - how Bulgars, Serbs (and Croats) ended as Slavic nations i.e. speakers, while none initally that... isn't it. And in the same time kept their original names, even many traditions for centuries... especially if one considers that (by some logic) Bulgrs/Serbs were much better "fighters" and better tribally organized than most Slavs then (i.e. in time when Slavisination took place, we don't know when really...)

well, there is answer (if you wondered) in science and history, relatively simple... Montenegro is good "surviving example"... the answer is numbers. So, tribes of nomads, hunters and more warlike due to not being tied to land and agriculture stayed in smaller numbers, while Slavs (less nomadic) probably were less hunters and more agricultural, allowing for greater families and care for them etc.... well, in short that is simple, maybe obvious answer by science on Slavization of Serbs, Bulgars etc (which happened before movement - which wasn't large in numbers) on Balkans... though some theorise that it happened on Balkans... if you ever wondered and if i never spoke it, subject per se is super interesting... apropos Servius Tullius, it is possible by presence of Serb name in some areas ...it is also possible that great percentage of Rascian Serbs here were locals from Roman times, as well... (could explain many "italianisms" in us, why so much "love" with Italians and almost friendlu relations, but that's other subject wanted shortly to give that scientific "why" on Slavization of Bulgars, Serbs etc... if you wondered.... Hungarians (Magyars) and Turks are exception, but they moved in much, much latter when tribal preservation and other factors happened through Europe...

[Bombast the Blue]

And now for something completely different: natural heritage...
Although "natural" is nowadays a hugely confuse concept in many people's heads.
In reality, as far as we consider "natural" something that was not influenced in any way by the man bug... "natural" is history too...
For those who mistake green with natural there is still much around to keep them dreaming about "natural".
https://www.ocean-retreat.com/regions-o ... va-forest/
(BBC Earth documentary on the laurel forest of Madeira Island.

Bonus content:
An example of "intangible heritage", the Cante Alentejano. Here, we call it "immaterial", perhaps a more defined term than intangible.
Being based upon a long oral tradition it remained "immaterial" until scholars started recording it from the best source available, the anonymous people.
And that started so late here that they really recorded it using television unlike what happened in many countries in which folklore was transcribed to sheet music many decades before.
https://ich.unesco.org/en/RL/cante-alen ... ugal-01007
(Official thing)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNqlk7yDRWc
(An episode of a seventies TV series about Portuguese folklore)

[Ale]

...got home (from orgy) turn some things on, look at some headlines and I see "Barbie (film) and Taylor Swift stimulate US economy" ...must say haven't seen Barbie - but I am sure it is something about being blond, dumb and always ready others to undress you so i support... sorry had to comment that you know me ; - US girls shouldn't feel any different, actually there is some teen party (I guess teen) in neignourhood (hope someone calls police)) and music is pure Arabia mixed with orient (land of the free, but respect and always join us from there esp. girls) Even in 90s "turbo-folk" was different, must say better... so doubt anyone is particulary dumber on planet etc. but will always comment things like Barbie - hope i guessed film plot right ) ...without sarcasm i support people being dumber, only way world to move forward ;

anyway - back to own subjects - I will also add as I doubt that any checked our (short but strong and effective) Unesco list... there is something interesting there. Latest protection by us is something called "unusual gravestones or sarcophaguses" of larger size, made of stone, and we share it with few neighbouring countries etc. Dating to middle ages and (but not related to us only) roundly Serbian peak and fall centuries.... i'm not into archeology so much, leave the job to pros and will not correct archeologists so much as "ordinary" historians who often wrongly "sort sources"... in that sense subject of such grave stones wasn't ever of much interest for me as medievalist but is interesting... when it comes to some influences and commons the most interesting thing about such graves is this - that is something which looks to traditions of western medditeranean, super interesting and adds to mysteries of our synthesis etc. go figure, western but made by our people/nobles in late middle ages... they sometimes preserved interesting lines, even humoristic, on them i like "you will be like me, but i will never be like you" to add that also to many interesting subjects i presented...

...while some Scytho-Sarmat (they were falconers btw) origin is most logical, i like also this theory... Serbs never spread much on Adriatic coast and even during peak kept only few ports and attacked east... in that sense Sebs are "fictional tribe" (of course not as there are source from vearious sides mentioned endo/exonym) who formed mostly by old populations (mostly Celts and Romans, hehe) and was pushed around by Croats and Bulgars until we finally connected with Italians (and even French) and formed strong state... reason why we did not spread much towards Romanic lands, is because they were our sisters With humor but seriously something like that, if you did not understand previously... that's all about that, always join, subjects are interesting and i'm shortening them max... above all medieval subjects i like and investigate, but liked things like Para's addition, finished mosly... (as said haplogroup/DNK analysis is - since Bombast mentioned nature - of importance) But again, mediveal subjects for me, while anyone feel free to add something to Bombast and Para etc.

(thanks Para and Bombast for entries, of course, but of course not "helpful" for some my investigations...)

[Ale]

...btw - one must finish in some way, while is interesting subject - when I previously talked about haplogroups and DNA i mentioned countries with most distribution (like Ukraine) but i did not mention one in which is also very present - today Romania... sapienti sat, as we say, Servius was the one. Again in modern Serbs, less than Croats and in Bosnia, equally important that it is not dominant Albanian one, nor much present and is not Slavic... might be very old and a) either shared once with west mediterranean or b) Scytho-Sarmantian one as it spreads most from ex-their land to SE of continent, including Bulgaria... that one about it as some "map" for readers... Slovenians have Slavic one (Polish to say as most representative).

wanted really to add something else. internationallz... don't see that we Serbs (or to call Rascian Serbs by then terms) have any "frustrations" about such subjects and are "lucky" in a way that history developed in a different way in culminated even in empire... so in that sense, in our case, historically, it is not even important to discuss only in topics of local population. To explain, many foreigners worked for us, much more than other 2-3 countries, saying unrelated to "sarcophagus" question, but really any other... what i'm trying to say is that for us (example) Baldovin or Pierre the Beast or Altoman shouldn't be looked at in contexts of "Vlachs" or any Romanized remnants as they could be just foreigners - Italians, French or Germans, even bloody English Altomans father was "Vojin" (Slavic meaning "soldier") so he theoretically could be anyone including Serb, same apropos Baldovin or else... so no frustration there, same said that we do not claim exclusivety on "sarcophagus" so i mentioned it as coincidence that their making is aligned with Rascia rise, peak and fall (XII c - XV c) but could be made by others "afraid of Rascia rise" simplified said. My impression is thyat me are maybe more self-sure and proud about some historical topics, which doesn't make anyone inferior - just less important Really that was our cool history and a bit of luck that Miluten took over and "super" Dušan entered scene... etc etc. just as some explain, not related to that subject... many people (without any humor) see that as sign of some superiority, but not that really, we just want to discuss history openly, be respected or based on details and facts...

problem is also that many older texts are based (again example in general, not on bloody "Stećak") on "knowledge" that is outdated... for example, we can today surely and openly say that Serb medieval nobility was ectremely tall, culminating with giant figure... second for us is equally if not more interesting (as medievalists) that graves "loyal to Miluten" were found much farer than Bosnia - in Treviso near Venice, Florence was our base and so on (by relative of local bishop) hope it is nice explain and why some texts are outdated... in that sense, not so much against "Baklava populations", we just research openmindedly - and great respect to Italians who saved some sources, as well to those preservin about Palman and "Alemanic guard" and million such details... trumbs up, thanks. kinda important things and "resumes" for any international reader

[Ale]

today i present one more subject i.e. interesting details and off. was sick (punishment for my words) due to going to many orgies, catched some stomach flu, but better now... will not blame Philip for now )

I do not believe in much coincidences (forget about "stećak")) and that is why i gave so much attention and care to Philip IV times and similar... popes Boniface VIII (under "treatment" by Philip)) pope Benedict XI (with whome maybe Miluten had nice correspondence, even if he reigned shortly, suspected poisioning and again Philip fingerprints)) and later French popes etc... things like Florentine bankers - and sometimes "dirty game" Hospitalers - replacing Templars in some games and transactions, rise and fall of same Italian banking/financial families and institutions that totally "concide"... replacement of Sieniese (Siena town in Italy) bankers/financiers with Florentine - and all that "coinncide" with Miluten rule and developments which resulted in all known... simply, too much "coincidences" to be just that and we to be totally out of it and not deeply related... even Guelph and Ghibelline division is "concidence" that led to rise of Nemanio Nemanide ; etc.

all to Dante's quasi "forgery" accusation of Miluten, while man might have been his fan in reality. Beside Venice had no right to claim any right on "grosso" (we called dinar) for themselves, hence its weight and silver percentage, decision was more political motivated and Venice was in fear that our dinar could compete with their both on Adriatic coast and Italy and feared that "many" Italians could go to Rascia (as it happened) and "strangely" it "coincide" with start year of Milutin's reign ) etc. Also besides, we just copied practice of Enrico Dandolo, grandfather of our queen and Miluten's grandmother ; Interesting subject that is highly controversial and of dubios narrative behind - but doesn't matter... it remained as story that George "golden fork" Brankovich devaluated Serb dinar after almost 200 years and 20-30 years later Serbia was no more (from some 20+dinars for "golden ducat" to some "35-40" dinars for ducat)

lovely subjects and very, very tough and complex/complicated... have no doubt that financial things, money flows and shift in financial centers/families directly influenced European history of the time - our especially - and indirectly created our modern states i.e. traditions (in a way, esp. 3-4 i mentioned) And that we were part of it from 1180s till XV c.... even fourth crusade was about infights between Genoese and Venetians etc. not religious themes that much... However that said, still wasn't able to completely determine our role i.e. "our side" (can take even Florence as example) in all events, but maybe it was intended to be this way, as well as what was real role of Templars, Benedict XI, Philip IV... Templars, in any way, suffered the most in those struggles ...English kings, story is and if you want to relate it with our events and my hypothetical saying that "we were on same side" with their loans they did not repay "ruined" Florentine bankers and few families, who still survived due to business in Italy - could be said that English almost prevented "renaissance" ...equally fair to say that - despite some quasi picture that Italy and Italians was almost medieval periphery or divided and in constant conflict - on the contrary, Italians were very influential and important in many European events and for us, maybe whole our history, indirectly... as last, again lament, too bad that (i have no doubt) many sources and "bills" mentioning us might have been ruined forever, intentionally and now is too late to ask Dante what he really meant... simple fact is that many had "interest" to do that - us and our figures, papal offices, French (Napoleon was so shocked to see what Karageorge asked him to pay)), Habsburgs etc etc.

as said many times - if lover fo period history, have some new theories and views, welcome to direct me in some way or add, for example would like to know some views from Scotland on Philip and all those events )... Let's add this "finacial flows" doctorate )) to all things interesting for times of our Rascian rise, peak and fall. Maybe Miluten is waving Florentine "three finger salute" after all ...as said, doesn't have to be about us at all, just say how close to truth i am. Even if not, consider it inetersting readings for our forum readers (but take place) or gift to forum... officially finished

[Ale]

decision was more political motivated and Venice was in fear that our dinar could compete with their both on Adriatic coast and Italy and feared that "many" Italians could go to Rascia (as it happened) and "strangely" it "coincide" with start year of Milutin's reign ) etc...

also - very important - don't forget what was one of Venetian "interests", to support "catholic faction" (or what they though might be that) in Serbia, so later marriage of Venetian noblewoman Costanza Morosini to son of Draguten (Miluten's older brother) Ladislav hoping that he could take the throne after Miluten ; but Dechanski did not gave... so that also to add to Venetian "fears and interests" and (quasi) allegations of Miluten's dinars etc... look i'm not that much into religious things but consider Miluten, Dechanski and Dušan very "badass" and unbreakable. Of course Venice was our daugther, much younger than us dating to Servius, and we do not have anything against Venice... Later events and unseen peak proved Venice above all very wrong - not only that Dušan (as Miluten before) had no intention to attack or endanger most of "their interest" but on the contrary Dušan offered Venice open alliance... so very wrong fears. Even with Hungary his actions were very limited and main direction was Constantinople-Jerusalem line...

think later Italian historians, even just history lovers understood that and often looked at Dušan "neutrally or respectfully", unlike some others... like in example of Gabriele mentioned, but it was not lone opinion... even modern Italian language page on Costanza understood the trick - and even if unrelated to her in any way - and finish with positive tone about Dušan... when it comes to Dante, he is very complicated author to understand and his true ideas ... he disliked Boniface, he disliked Filip, he disliked many Italian "duxes", doubt he was true "fan" of whole Venice, and Miluten "forgery" was just a good joke to put in contemporary European events he described...

so, dear readers, now you have complete story without any ideaolgical or political intents, hope you like... always say what interests you